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PaperclipPerfector  19d ago (text post)   35143 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 3, 2025

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They probably will do that, because politicians (regardless of affiliation) are just about the most amoral, do-whatever-it-takes people in existence. But they shouldn't do that. If morality means anything at all, you must stick to it even when it is personally inconvenient. It is far better, morally speaking, to be a virtuous loser than a vicious winner.

personally inconvenient

The alleged claim of political partisans is that letting the other side win will ruin the nation. "Sure, I enabled an act of horrific societal self-destruction. But I was really polite while failing to stop it."

People tend to transform into consequentialists when the consequences become too great.

But they shouldn't do that. If morality means anything at all, you must stick to it even when it is personally inconvenient.

Even non-divine command deontological systems depend on the rule being a good thing overall. It's fine for a rule to be bad sometimes.

But if the rule you followed consistently brings you and all you value to defeat it is not a good rule.

If you're worried about outcomes, you really aren't in deontology land any more. You're in consequentialism land. Which is fine, but... that isn't deontology.

no deontologists exist because no one pulls morality from the ether; the deontologists of today are little more than traditionalists who have adopted consequence tested morality from their ancestors

the "deontologists" of yesteryear who picked suicide duties and rules are gone, forgotten, and irrelevant

Oh goody! I get another opportunity to share this gem of a paper.

No, because such a ruleset will require the "virtuous loser" to go extinct. If your morality requires extinction, it is of no use because it will always lose and make the world worse as time goes on. A morality which consistently makes the world worse if followed isn't a morality worth adopting. It only survives because other better men are willing to do what is necessary to create the space for the "virtuous loser" to survive at all.

The virtuous loser is not virtuous, he's a coward who is surrendering to entropy.

The virtuous loser is not virtuous, he's a coward who is surrendering to entropy.

If you don't see the difference between principle and cowardice, we truly will never agree on this.

There is a difference and yet they're not mutually exclusive. And many times, they're the same thing. In the context of what we're talking about with American politics; the virtuous losers were cowards who weren't willing to make the hard decisions to save their progeny and nation from being reshaped by their enemies. It's easy to be the virtuous loser, it's hard to make and do the things necessary to win.

And even if you acknowledged the above, I still don't think we will ever agree on this. For the "virtuous" losers, they've made being losers their identities. They already have their crosses built.

It is far better, morally speaking, to be a virtuous loser than a vicious winner.

This philosophy, like the Amish, can at best only exist surrounded by the guns of those who don't share it.

It’s almost too perfect, really.

Okay, but can it be their side that does the virtuous losing and my side that does the vicious winning? I'm content with that state of affairs. They can win as many moral victories as they like and I can have the actual victories.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Story_of_Ah_Q

I don't disagree, but it wouldn't be hard to based upon how one defines 'morality'. What it means to be moral is rarely even discussed, perhaps because the once-bedrock shared understandings which would have made such conversation possible have been so badly eroded. This occurs to me as concerning.

It is far better, morally speaking, to be a virtuous loser than a vicious winner.

What would you say to someone who asks 'why?'

I don't disagree, but it wouldn't be hard to based upon how one defines 'morality'. What it means to be moral is rarely even discussed, perhaps because the once-bedrock shared understandings which would have made such conversation as possible have been so badly eroded. This occurs to me as concerning.

That's fair. I think it's a serious problem that we have so little shared foundation in the US today. I think it's very important that a nation has a set of shared values or goals to anchor them in times of internal disagreement, and it seems like we don't often have that any more.

What would you say to someone who asks 'why?'

Good question. I gave it some thought and I honestly don't know. I believe it because it was drilled into me from a young age by my parents. But I don't think I could provide an argument outside that context. I'm kind of bad at that sort of thing in general, and it's especially hard for me to think of a solid argument for my moral axioms (as this is).

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