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naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   32429 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 31, 2022

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Also, is there hard evidence that Asian students do indeed perform better in regards to the purpose of education — becoming highly skilled and intellectually balanced? If they are not more likely, than the universities are correct to balance test scores with some other, even amorphous, metric.

Hard disagree on that one. "Highly skilled" is evident in their grades and test scores. "Intellectually balanced" just screams "I arbitrarily invented this criterion to exclude you", you're the one that needs to provide hard evidence that they aren't "intellectually balanced" or universities can just say "well, it turns out it's black students who are the most intellectually balanced of all!".

Test scores do not carry over into music composition ability and ability to write important books, which are two of the most meritocratic domains we have. Certainly it would carry over if you’re an engineering academic or mathematician, but in the real world the problem sets are not “solve these clear instructions and do nothing else”. The importance of intellectual balance (which is not some ad hoc formulation but was found in European culture in its most dominant period) is that you want a programmer who can determine when his instructions are errant and convey this, or can follow the instructions with the greater goal in mind versus gunning for a promotion.

with the greater goal in mind versus gunning for a promotion.

There goes about half the workforce of google lol

Good, make space.

Test scores do not carry over into music composition ability and ability to write important books

Care to back this wild claim up? By what manner was this measured? Any chance you just made this up?

Test scores do not carry over into music composition ability and ability to write important books, which are two of the most meritocratic domains we have.

If they're actually meritocratic, you should be able to come up with a test that can judge that ability regardless of race, instead of coming up with ad-hoc adjustments.

Correct, the test is whether the most important books or compositions are from that group

Actually, the test is in depth of poetic tradition, in which case the Arabs and Iranians, at the very least, are strong contenders , while Chinese is the unrivalled hegemon of strictly metered poetry.

Obviously I’m not actually espousing that because that would be really really fucking stupid, but I don’t see why your criteria is any better. What “important books”? Are we discounting the Vedas and its effect on the Indian subcontinent, even taking opposite parts together? The entirety of the medieval Arabic literature? The Confucian canon, or the Records of the Grand Historian, which was studied extensively in the China and the Sinosphere, along with countless other texts? The Tale of Genji, a Japanese work, widely considered the first novel in the world? And why compositions, of all things? And how well versed are you in the traditional works of other civilizations, and what about them to yours? Is your “important works” mainly a result of your myopia than a realistic assessment?

It is true that European civilization, through genius and luck, produced a way of thought in the last few centuries that resulted in astonishing progress, and that culminated in hegemony over the world for two centuries. It may even be that there is some inherent superiority to European civilisation, though what you have written does less to substantiate this than to discredit it. But you would do well to remember that that was not the way of the world before, and it would be unwise to assume that the current superiority you see is, in fact, universal law.

You just said that. You haven't given any reason for anyone to think it's true. For all we know you could have made it up on the spot.

If you really got it from somewhere, tell us where it's from. If not, don't make things up.

Using this purely subjective criteria and having ideologically motivated DEI employees judge people based on it, what is the outcome?

Not to mention how very flexible "group" will become when motivated people use it. "Race is a social construct" when certain races might plausibly benefit. Awarding racial spoils is very important and in fact morally required when other races might benefit. The same person will effortlessly push for both points simultaneously without any sense of contradiction.

So I guess someone decided black people's books and composition are disproportionately more important, and affirmative action is not an issue after all!

I think the claim is that our methods of testing are inherently biased in favor of diligence over brilliance. Therefore, relying solely on test scores will tend reward the former too much and the latter too little. If true, then some kind of counterbalance may be desirable.

That is completely backwards. Our tests do a great job of noticing the smart kids with unexceptional grades, and inspiring despair in the dilligent-but-unexceptional.

Absolutely not. If you want to propose such a counterbalance you first have to come up with a reasonably objective way to test "brilliance", and only then can will you be able to decide how much counterbalance is necessary. But if you have such a test, you don't need a counterbalance at all, you can just use it as an admission criterion.

The objective test for brilliance is lifetime achievement, and it correlates with but is not the same as being good at academic tests.

Then I guess we have to wait until someone dies to admit them into a university.

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