This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
It has to be admitted, whether you agree with pope Francis’s theology or not, that almost none of it is either insightful nor in straightforward accordance with the most established teaching of the church on those topics. His leadership from an administrative perspective has also been astonishingly poor and unusually given to corruption, foot in mouth disease, and inconsistency.
That the current pontificate is causing a crisis of faith isn’t a mystery; you have a pope who is both a poor administrator and who commits a series of unforced theological errors that reach their pinnacle in literally worshipping a pagan idol, and there are no Catholics alive today who remember a pope worse than mediocre.
Can you elaborate on this? The papers here in Northern Europe don't really talk about catholic church much for rather obvious reasons.
Here's one collection of examples of poor management(yes, a lot of this is preexisting issues that the current pope has made worse, unraveled recent progress, or simply failed to improve after it blew up): https://www.forbes.com/sites/magteam/2021/10/03/the-popes-corruption-problems/?sh=19bffb1c54c9 Becciu has since been allowed to appear as a cardinal in public at the recent consistory of cardinals.
Some other examples include elevating Kevin Farrell(notorious for having lived with the ex-cardinal McCarrick and having received large, unexplained cash gifts while bishop of Dallas) to the cardinalate, a "reform" of the knights of Malta that appears to be little more than revenge against his ideological enemies that he himself put there, making large breaks with precedent in poorly worded motu proprios(a category of church legislation heavily used in regulating the application of canon law), with his suppression of the latin mass in particular seeming to have managed to alienate at least a few left wing cardinals who don't like traditionalists very much, and revocations of previously granted permissions to one group or other within the church for little to no reason alienating almost everyone, sacking of a sitting bishop in Puerto Rico with no explanation(sacking a sitting bishop at all being rarest of rare), and a controversy involving ecumenism with the Russian orthodox church that I don't claim to understand but which has something to do with Ukraine. There's also some vague plans to completely change the relationship of the clergy and religious to existing church structures.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I think most people today don't realize Catholics had a Pope literally declared a heretic at one point. We've had much worse popes. The Catholic claims do not rely on a perfect pope who believes, professes, and acts perfectly all the time. This post has a good summary of what Catholics mean and don't mean about papal infallability.
It's just weird that Catholics had a run of fairly upstanding and holy popes compared to the historical norm. Pope Francis is a regression to the mean.
deleted
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I think having the fertility statues present on the church grounds is odd but to suggest their presence is evidence that the pope worships them is a huge stretch to me. If the pope was saying "lets all pray to gaia" i would agree with your alarmist stance, but he didn't, and he wouldn't. Perhaps in a changing world, God is instructing Pope Francis differently than popes past.
The pope actually literally worshipped that statue on at least one occasion at the opening ceremony of the synod on the Amazon- although there's no documentation that he's done so since then, he has defended having done so.
Well, I guess you can't prove what he was thinking/intending. But prostrating before a statue of a fertility goddess while offerings are being made to it fits most definitions of worship.
More options
Context Copy link
Ironically, you would think that Catholics would not lump these two together, given how often they get accused of idolatry towards saints and icons of saints. I mean maybe the pope is in fact worshipping some pagan gods, IDK his heart. But if anyone should be expected to have a nuanced distinction between "having a representation of a thing" and "worshipping the thing", it should be Catholics.
Isn't how often they get accused of idolatry increasing the likelihood of other forms of idolatry in other forms?
Nah. That angle would make sense if it was Protestants criticizing the pope for this - a Protestant might say "he already practices idolatry towards the saints, it's hardly a surprise if he starts worshipping a pagan goddess too".
But we're talking criticism from Catholics. From their perspective, the accusations of idolatry are baseless, because they know that they aren't worshipping saints just because they have some icon representing a saint. So from that perspective, they should know damn well that if the pope has some pagan statue around, it doesn't therefore mean he's worshipping it.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link