This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
There's a difference between not wanting "low human capital people" (as the kids say these days) to come lower the average quality of life in your town/city/country, and, say, proposing grinding up all the Congolese into Soylent Green while telling them it's nothing personal. No microscope required, it's quite visible with the naked eye. In fact you'd almost have to be trying not to see it.
I mean yes. But there are always practical issues. We simply don’t have room for everyone who would want to come, for a start. Our society simply can’t handle importing 20% of our population annually, for example. I’m not convinced we could successfully import 3% of our current population annually with no issues. Add in issues of culture (Palestinians have a much different culture than Swedes or Chinese) language, individual immigrant’s education level, the amount of money needed to ge5 people who arrive with nothing a home and food while they look for work. This is all assuming no criminal, terrorist or similar background. It’s not just “do I directionally want immigrants here, it’s questions of getting the thing done without breaking the country. Importing all of Gaza into Nebraska isn’t feasible— we don’t have the resources to successfully integrate that number of people into America. At best, you end up turning Nebraska into Gaza, lock stock and barrel. I don’t think anyone looking at that situation would say I want to turn Palestinians into Soylent. It’s just that as a practical matter, we can’t actually do that.
More options
Context Copy link
The difference is one of degree, not kind. The former is less bad than the latter, but they both come from the same malignant well: the belief that the well-being of Mtumbe Ngoube from Kinshasa or Fulan al-Fulani from Karbala matters less than that of John Doe from Kansas City or Max Mustermann from Koln.
There is a story told of Churchill, that he asked some lady
Wanting to kill people and not wanting them near you is a difference in kind, or there is no distinction between differences in kind and differences in degree.
You've butchered the story -- the woman has to actually agree for it to work. But even in the valid version, there's a difference between being a whore and being a cheap whore.
More options
Context Copy link
It’s a fun story but it’s actually pretty dumb. There is probably an amount of money that even Elon Musk would suck a dick for, and even if we’re talking about people who don’t desire money, there’s every chance there’s something (health, physical fitness, the resurrection of a loved one, the chance to have children, world peace, a tripling of their beloved dog’s lifespan) they would degrade themselves to have. Churchill himself was surely no different.
There are some things which most people will not do for money, or anything else short of a credible threat of death or hideous pain. In cultures influenced by Abrahamic religion, a straight man sucking dick is one of them. It isn't just a sin - it's an abomination. (Leviticus, passim)
I’m sure that’s the case. But go to any devoutly religious Abrahamic community and offer each man a billion dollars to suck a dick (with anonymity before all but God) and mammon will tempt even the village priest. Some may stand firm. Most will not.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link