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I generally see the smarty pants contrarian "reduce MD salaries" suggestion paired with a proposal to change the training pipeline, notably by going straight to med school instead of making it a postgraduate program (which I gather is how things work in much of the rest of the Western world.). I don't know whether other countries run their residencies like the US does but presumably worth looking into as well.
Sure people talking about increasing the supply of physicians and therefore driving costs down, but that only matters if reducing physician salaries does anything useful. It's not a large enough slice of the pie.
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Removing the undergrad requirement would be nice for American doctors, who wouldn't have to spend an extra 4 years and $200,000 for literally no reason, but it wouldn't do anything to help patients. That's because the real bottleneck on the number of doctors is the residency requirement, not the medical degree. To increase the supply of doctors, need to either shorten residency or increase the number of residency slots.
I've talked elsewhere about the whole residency and medical school slot thing. The residency length thing is a very complicated discussion.
I do want to point out there are some advantages to the U.S. system of 4+4 years. Yes lots of places do 4 or 6 years, but the ability to go through undergrad first gives you a few advantages:
-You actually have a college experience/fun. That's important!
-You are absolutely sure this is what you want. Really fucking important.
-Better balanced people - less medical school robots.
-Opens the door for career changers, who are some of the best doctors.
Medical school students who start at 18 in other countries still have a “college experience”, they’re still on campus, can still party, join clubs, whatever, they’re just doing a more intense course.
I mean preclinical years are an undergraduate class every 1-2 weeks. That pace cuts out a lot of traditional college activity. Once clinicals start you aren't on campus anymore and don't have time for fun. I'm sure this isn't the case in Europe but you can't change the work culture that easily (nor the geography which is a big piece of it).
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Abolishing pre-med and pre-law does not close the door for career-changers, though. People can still do 4+4 if they want.
How would that work though? You "go back to college" instead of medical school - all the students are 18 instead of 22-26 and you do the curriculum designed with 18 year old maturity. I'm sure some people would still do it but that the amount would absolutely tank.
People "go back to college" all the time, what are you talking about? You think people wouldn't career change into medicine if it was only a 4 year thing because the curriculum being designed for 18 year olds would make it, what, too easy? Your messages in this entire thread are alien but this takes the cake.
I am not saying I don't support switching from the American model to what we do in Europe. I'm saying that you'd see a plummeting in career change applicants. Medical school isn't very much like (current) undergrad.
For example: medical education is always consolidated programs not a la carte, right now that's mildly aggravating to biochem majors who have to redo a small amount. A European model would involve redoing a lot of coursework very consistently.
I don't think career changers exist at all in Europe/elsewhere in the world.
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People do that all the time. People enter undergrad after enlisting in the military, or working a few years, all the time. People take a degree part time, nights and weekends, while working. It's not crazy.
I don't think career changers exist at all in Europe/elsewhere in the world. If you have information to the contrary please share.
Uh, my understanding is that the continental Euro education system is completely different and most students are locked in to a particular set of postsecondary education(often sharply limited) by their mid-teens at the latest. Applying directly to medical school, or applying to medical school with a two year degree in biology or chemistry, shouldn't necessarily bring the entire Prussian education system with it.
Now that being said, while I assuredly do not think that making doctors get bachelor's degrees before applying to med school does anything useful, we do not live in a society where med school applicants will stop getting bachelor's degrees if it's not technically required anyways.
Yes also my understanding which is why I'm concerned about killing career changers.
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What are you talking about? Why does it matter whether people change medical careers in Europe when people change careers in America all the time despite needing a new degree?
If doctors don't change careers in Europe that would tell us more about Europe and it's education system and career choices than it would about how it would go in America, right?
I'm saying we will lose career changers if we make the system change from American to European? If there aren't any in Europe that is good evidence if we make our system European, no?
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