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PaperclipPerfector  5d ago (text post)   1810 thread views

Friday Fun Thread for November 29, 2024

Be advised: this thread is not for serious in-depth discussion of weighty topics (we have a link for that), this thread is not for anything Culture War related. This thread is for Fun. You got jokes? Share 'em. You got silly questions? Ask 'em.

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Steelmanning Rogan’s Dragons

Epistemic status: boredom induced schizoposting. It’s in the Friday fun thread for a reason.

So apparently some recent drama is Joe Rogan feuding with the ladies of the view about the existence of dragons. So the theory on JRE goes, we know dragons existed because so many ancient cultures with no connection to each other depicted themselves fighting them, and they’re not fossilized because they have bird like bones that aren’t very robust the fossil record is incomplete etc. It wouldn’t be the first time that an animal was known to the ancients, dismissed by historians, and then later discovered to have been there after all- although the Benu Heron and hippos in Mesopotamia are quite a bit less juicy.

We know from paleontology that flying creatures of that size can exist and have batlike dragon-style wings- for example, Quetzalcoatlus northropi. We also know that flying is energy intensive, pushing animals that do it towards energy-rich foods(eg meat, fruit, seeds), and the only source of sufficient quantity of energy rich food available to a flying creature of that size would be megafauna living in open areas- a flying creature of that size cannot hunt over a forest canopy effectively. Furthermore, ancient sources are unanimous that dragons are similar to snakes- depictions of dragons as being flying lizards are more recent, contemporaries agreed that they may or may not have hindlimbs but definitely did not have forelimbs- pointing to vestigial back legs, and all snakes are carnivores. Ancient sources agree that they ate large animals, preferred hot weather, and were highly venomous, indicating similarities to existing squamates.

So dragons needed open areas with sufficient temperatures to hunt, but being flying creatures could range long distances. It’s reasonable to suppose that they needed rocky, inaccessible broken terrain to nest in, being too big for trees and all. Given the preference for hot weather but also ancient sources placing them in places that have winter, we can probably assume they migrated.

Now if their bones were bird like we can assume that a dragon’s hunting strategy would have avoided directly overpowering prey animals due to risk of injury; today’s eagles go for a quick strike but without talons, and with taking elephants, that’s likely impossible.

Instead, let’s call attention to the weapon the ancient sources describe- their breath. Ancient sources are often confused about this- some describe spitting fire, others say their breath by itself could kill, others say that they spat venom. Python is described in legend as very nearly killing Apollo with his venom. And spitting venom isn’t unknown- cobras do this. Probably the ancient sources are a bit confused as to what exactly dragons were spitting, I think it’s fair to say that they’re describing a spitting cobra-like mechanism for getting venom into their prey’s face, which weakens them sufficiently to be safely attacked, and that it tended to disperse into a cloud rather than a defined stream leading to confusion as to what exactly it was. Ancient legends don’t seem to refer to dragons setting fires, so the fire part is probably an inexact description- maybe spat venom was highly caustic and tended to burn or sting on contact.

Now this raises the question of what happened to them, and the answer is ‘we killed them all’. Specifically, the indo-European expansion spread a dragon-killing technology package of better bows and better mobility for the individual warrior. If my theory about how dragons tended to attack was correct, then a chariot borne warrior with a compound bow would have a nearly ideal attack angle on a dragon that fought, if he had the balls to use it- spat venom is mostly effective against the face, leading dragons to have an instinct for diving at their prey from the front and breaking suddenly to spit. It’s not like wild horses or elephants have missile weapons.

Now that story is especially unfortunate for our poor dragons because, geographically, the indo-European urheimat is likely the primest summertime territory sustaining the largest breeding population(most existing migratory bird species breed in their summertime territories). And isn’t Russian mythology supposedly all about rendering the territory fit for human settlement by killing a dragon? For pastoralists, a large creature that comes out of nowhere and kills their livestock is a huge threat and an indo-European tendency to be especially aggressive at persecuting dragons can perhaps be perceived, although the semites are possibly just as bad. We can also assume that people with the option would destroy their nests and kill more vulnerable young/eggs. Long story short, sharing territory with people is just not going to work out well for them(as for many other animals).

By Roman times, naturalists record them as occurring solely in India, perhaps because the Himalayas are the hardest to get to location. A small population like that is extra vulnerable to extinction and it’s not a mystery how they wound up dying out entirely.

I'm sure that if you give up on flight - which as you correctly pointed out is likely medieval addition, at least as far as Eastern and Western folklore is concerned - there must be some historical reptiles that bear some passable resemblance to some of the dragon depictions. And some of them may even be venomous, why not. Reptiles are known for being venomous.

And isn’t Russian mythology supposedly all about rendering the territory fit for human settlement by killing a dragon?

"All" is a massive overstatement, but there are certain mentions of hostile reptiles, often three-headed. It usually controls communication ways (roads, bridges, etc.) rather than territories. So one would be very tempted to write it down as a metaphoric depiction of nomadic tribes terrorizing their settled neighbors by attacking their trade routes, but of course that suggestion makes one a dull person.

they’re not fossilized because they have bird like bones that aren’t very robust the fossil record is incomplete etc.

Bird fossils do exist.

It's common for people to assume animals can fly that can't.

Take the legendary version of the tiger, the manticore.

You're out in the woods. A tiger, drops from a tree, grabs Steve, jumps back into a tree and runs off.

From your point of view the stripes on the tail could be segments like a scorpion. It came down then went up. Obviously it flew.

If you talk to hunters many of them will joke about deer flying. They get spooked, run at you, jump over your head, then when you look around they are gone. You just saw them go up and vanish.

So that's probably the source of Pegasus and flying reindeer.

So the historic dragon might not have even flown. It could just be a good pouncer who can get away quickly.

Of course that's less fun.

I think if you have this belief you're required to write a novel about the historical dragons and what they were like and what happened to them. Or at least have one ghost-written for you, if you're a famous guy like Rogan.

If somebody wants to write a novel based on my schizoposts I’m all aboard.

Who cares about dragons that don't even breathe fire? 😴

(1) Agreed. If you told me that scientists discovered that there was an animal that flew and spit venom, I'd be like, OK! I wouldn't be shocked. But I wouldn't call it a dragon.

(2) The above logic seems no more convincing than the evidence for the average cryptid. It's not impossible but I'd surely need some harder evidence before I thought it's true.

hell, i'm convinced. There be dragons!

There been dragons.

and maybe... still... on the inside of the hollow earth...

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