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PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   26164 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 25, 2024

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I have yet to see evidence that reticence about pregnancy and childbirth is responsible for more than a non-negligible percentage of the fertility decline, although I suppose you can say every little bit adds up.

Instead I think people don’t want babies, rather than not wanting pregnancy. People don’t look forwards to sleepless nights and changing diapers(yes I’m aware this isn’t a huge deal in practice), they want the flexibility to not have to worry about childcare arrangements, they dread paying for daycare or remember parts of their own childhoods that sucked(and I think this is underdiscussed- by all evidence a big part of the conservative fertility advantage is literally republicans looking forwards to going to t-ball games), they’re afraid the man in their life isn’t committed enough(and extended periods of premarital cohabitation are an increasing problem).

Sure, babies too. the whole package deal is kind of a crappy deal when you think about it logically. worst deal in the history of deals, etc. It's not surprising that women are choosing not to take it.

the whole package deal is kind of a crappy deal when you think about it logically.

I think you ought to stop and examine exactly why you think this, i suspect the answers may surprise you.

i can't find it right now, but someone linked a substack here a few months ago that laid out in brutal detail just how bad the entire process of childbirth is for women. Of course maybe it pays off in some longterm, ineffable, spiritual joy, but you should be able to appreciate why a lot of women wouldn't willingly take that deal.

Nobody I know who has children thinks the suffering of pregnancy or childbirth is on the same order of magnitude as the benefits of having children

Presumably those were all people who had a choice to have kids? At least the choice to not abort. You might hear differrently from women in 3rd world countries where they really don't have a choice (if you can even get them to speak honestly)

Uh, it pays off not in some long-term, ineffable, spiritual joy but in a baby.

I remember the piece you're talking about. It was of course, written by a woman who has never had children.

Meanwhile, women who have children usually have more than one.

do you have a link to it, or remember the author's name? I wanted to read it again but I can't remember it.

Again I think you ought to stop and examine why you would believe such a thing seeing as (as @Gaashk observes) childbirth is arguably a "better" deal than it has ever been in human history and yet birthrates have declined. What do you think is up with that?

On the other hand, birth rates have been dropping especially fast over the past decade, when women have had choices for generations, and things like ultrasounds, epidurals, prenatal testing, formula, c-sections for the convenience of the doctors, and whatnot have been improving. Childbirth is less bad than before. Even feeding babies is less bad than before. Freedom of women is about the same, at least in the anglosphere. Yet birth rates continue to drop.

As you said, the birth rate has dropped despite healthcare getting better, which suggests that it's not a simple matter of healthcare. But while women might have had the same legal rights for a while now, their social and economic power continues to increase.

But while women might have had the same legal rights for a while now, their social and economic power continues to increase.

That's one way to look at it.

Another way to look at it, however, is that as wages are equalized, the wife's income is more likely to be essential to the household budget, such that she is expected and needed to go back to work as soon as possible.

Also, the prenatal programs are pushing breastfeeding. So she's expected (not able, I mean expected) to work until she gives birth, then breastfeed for a month or two, then drop her infant off at daycare and pump at work, and still get up in the middle of the night to feed her infant, while also working a full day outside the home. Even elementary teachers are struggling with this, with a generally easy schedule/ They hide their children in windowless offices on "professional development" days, for instance, because they aren't allowed to organize childcare amongst themselves.

Maybe making childbirth safer, easier, and more delayable has led to women putting off having a baby, because now it's not a now-or-never, might-as-well-get-it-over-with kind of thing like it was?

This appears as you typical minding to me. Honestly, the more I think about the deal, the more it appears to be, logically, the best deal in the history of deals, and someone who can make deals that are better than that one is someone who must be in an almost unimaginably privileged position.

not have to worry about childcare arrangements, they dread paying for daycare

This is only a reason if both parents work outside the home. If one parent is a homemaker no daycare is required.

If lack of daycare / affordability was impacting fertility I'd expect to see higher tfr in countries that have improved access / lower cost care available. Is this what we see?

My suspicion is that what they want is the flexibility to not have to worry about children. The cohort of childless or low fertility women I've the most exposure to other than the lesbians, would see themselves dipicted in fiction as the women from 'Sex in the City' or the strong capable lady doctors of 'Grey's Antotomy'. Free childcare would be unlikely to promote children in this cohort.

Whether free childcare raises the TFR is a question with an answer that depends on how you adjust for confounders IIRC, which almost certainly means that even if it does work it doesn’t work very well. But that’s one thing in a list and I mostly agree with you about what it actually codes for.

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