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naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   33194 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 10, 2022

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And it was clear in that moment that there's a compelling need, to some extent, for more representation of x demographic, because, for instance, it can't be positive to grow up watching superhero movies and none of them look like you.

I actually think the opposite. It's profoundly unhealthy to care if people look like you, and we should be teaching our kids to not worry about such things. When I was growing up, I consumed media featuring all manner of people - black, white, male, female, you name it. I never cared if they looked like me, I cared if they were part of an interesting story. I think that's the attitude we need to cultivate in kids, not feeding the attitude that "yes it really does matter what people's superficial characteristics are".

Taken at face value, this seems like a strong argument for race blind casting. You* can't simultaneously say appearances don't matter and make a big deal out of casting a non-white actor (or otherwise portraying) for a customarily white character. Maybe you don't need Black Panther, but if you're going to argue for that you ought to be open to black Captain America or Hispanic Iron Man or female Thor. Or, say, black Ariel.

*rhetorical you, not you specifically

It's an argument for race blind casting in some cases, sure. But not all. While I don't care about the race of characters per se, I care a great deal about adaptations being faithful to the original. So, no race swapping established characters, but yeah original characters can be whatever and it doesn't bother me.

While I don't care about the race of characters per se, I care a great deal about adaptations being faithful to the original.

What does that mean, though? There are certainly stories where changing the race of certain characters at the very least demands some justification, but there are plenty where it does not. Does it really make any sense to insist that Hamlet only be played by Danish actors? Was it a problem that Tom Cruise played the role of a Japanese man in Edge of Tomorrow? (Or, if you want something more recent, basically everyone in Bullet Train).

I don't think that it's particularly complicated. If the character is described a certain way in a book (or other source material), then they should stay that way in an adaptation. And yes, that goes for making characters white as well as making them black. The sword cuts both ways. I was annoyed that the Wheel of Time show felt the need to take white characters and make them black, but I would've been equally annoyed if they had taken the black characters and made them white.

I think you're overthinking this. It really is quite simple.

So there's no legitimacy to complaints about black elf OCs in Rings of Power or black Ariel?

I think you're overthinking this. It really is quite simple.

In principle it's not that complicated. In practice it doesn't seem quite so straightforward. I see this argument advanced when it comes to changing a character's appearance, but it tends to get applied in very selective and arbitrary (and one sided) ways. No one complains when adapters change, e.g. a character's hair or eye color, height/physique. Recasting a customarily white character tends to provoke a far stronger reaction than vice versa (nobody complained about Neeson or Hardy in the Nolan Batman films, for example), but also concerns about authenticity/fidelity go out the window if the casting choice is sufficiently cool (approximately no one complained about SLJ as Nick Fury or Jason Momoa as Aquaman, despite them bearing virtually no resemblance to their character's original appearance).

I do recall people complaining about Tom Cruise playing Jack Reacher in the movie, since the character is supposed to be a behemoth and Tom Cruise is more... petite. There was much celebration when the character in the TV show was played by a big guy.

Yep, I definitely remember those complaints. I hadn't read the books and I thought (and still think) Cruise did a really good job in the movie, but having seen the series now I definitely see their point. Cruise did as well as he could for a guy his size, but only for a guy his size.

I mean, Tom Cruise is going to kill it in anything. If they had put Andrew Garfield or such in the role, it would have been a much bigger issue.

Oh, no, we're keeping Black Panther. But he's going to be played by Robert Pattinson.

Agreed. I come from South America; Latin American countries don't have their own animation industries, so I grew up watching imported American cartoons and Japanese anime. I never had any problems identifying with Goku just because he was Japanese.

To this day, I feel a thousand times more represented by Harry James Potter-Evans-Verres (a white Briton written by an American Jew) than I do by a character who shares my race like Jaime Reyes. HJPEV thinks like me; Jaime merely looks like me.

I never had any problems identifying with Goku just because he was Japanese.

This is an interesting case, since Goku is actually an alien, and the Earth of Dragon Ball is far removed from the real Earth, with none of the same countries as real Earth or even countries that are equivalent to real countries on real Earth. Goku's backstory was based partly off of Journey to the West, which is an old Chinese story, while his character design was by a Japanese artist following Japanese manga standards, giving him a highly stylized appearance that evokes a Japanese person to the audience. Goku's backstory was also based partly off of Superman, who's another alien who takes the appearance of a human from a particular country (USA in this case).

There's a similar thing with Mobile Suit Gundam; with over 20 different shows and movies across 40+ years, all the different protagonists, many of whom are drawn in the mukokuseki style common to anime, should be assumed to be at least part-Japanese unless stated otherwise.

This might vary depending on how much you generally identify with characters in movies/shows. I get really immersed when watching something, and that immersion gets stronger for characters who I feel similarity to. For example, if I'm watching a show where a woman is fighting, I feel it in my body. Watching a show where men are fighting, I'm just an observer.

The experience is just fundamentally different for me, aside from any political/societal concerns.

if I'm watching a show where a woman is fighting, I feel it in my body. Watching a show where men are fighting, I'm just an observer.

Are you sure this is because you are female? I feel the same way, as a male, because watching a woman fight subverts expectations. If a woman is typically more vulnerable and less aggressive, then it means more to see her fight and risk more than a stronger man would risk in the same situation. Even for a superhero like Buffy, there is power in the idea of what is supposed to be "the weakest" element -- not only a girl, but a pretty girl, and not only a pretty girl but a child -- standing up as the only line between monsters and men. This is (or was, until it got beaten into the ground recently) powerful to a wide range of viewers regardless of their sex. For a more extreme example, the little girl in Kick Ass, who is not even superpowered -- it's extremely emotional to see her mix it up because she is a supposedly weak female child, not because the viewer is a weak female child.

That is interesting. I always identified with the male characters as a kid. I hated being relegated to the pink power ranger role in preschool. Raven in Teen Titans was the first female character I felt a strong connection with.

Most of the books and shows I was exposed to as a kid featured boys being the main character/hero and girls being poorly written plot devices or hyper-feminine. I always identified (roleplayed in make-believe) as the hero, regardless of gender/race. I wanted to be Aladdin for Halloween and ran into an issue there with the shirtless vest look. But for the most part no one made much of it.

That is indeed a possibility. I would say I identify with characters in the sense that I empathize with their situation, but not in the sense that I see them as a reflection of myself in some way. For example, in video games the whole concept of self insertion is completely foreign to me. When people talk about it I can intellectually understand what they mean, but in terms of understanding what that is like they may as well be talking about drinking gasoline for nourishment.

So, given that I just don't self insert at all, that could explain why I have no trouble identifying with characters regardless of demographics, and why others do have trouble.

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