site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   32642 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 5, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I don’t think it was a lie.

In the primary, he was certainly more moderate than Sanders. In the general, he played the straight man to Trump’s firebrand; I’d say both of them turned out pretty moderate indeed.

Like most administrations, Biden’s has had boring responses to boring problems. What was the moderate/normal version of dealing with inflation?

I think the "Fair Game" order on Elon Musk was pretty abnormal. Multi-agency conspiracies to retaliate against domestic dissent are pretty serious business. Yes, it's not entirely unprecedented, what with literal Watergate and the Trump-Ukraine affair (and, if you really want to dredge things up, the Sedition Act), but Biden's Musk harassment is possibly larger in scale than the former two and in any case even "on par with Nixon and Trump in abuse of the office" is hardly a "return to normal".

Like most administrations, Biden’s has had boring responses to boring problems. What was the moderate/normal version of dealing with inflation?

Not causing it with a massive vote buying giveaway after the causes of a non-central "recession" were already solved.

The border was stable. He destablized it intentionally by repealing a bunch of policies.

There was no war in Israel. He released billions of dollars to Hamas's patron Iran.

He tried to fire millions of workers over a vaccine that ended up being meh.

He stopped the Keystone pipeline more or less permanently.

He tried getting a PR win by evacuating Afghanistan in a totally illogical way just so it could happen before 9/11.

These are not moderate left wing ideas like raising the payroll tax cap by 50% or expanding school lunch programs to include a new disadvantaged class (indeed he also radically threatened to pull funding for school lunches if schools didn't enable transing the kids). They are wild attempts at reforming things significantly in a very left wing way.

I don't know, but I think I could come up with something more moderate than ensuring the executive has to participate in white privilege struggle sessions, or pressuring an already radical organization to promote the removal of age limits on transgender care.

I remember the LockMart shitshow. I also observe that it was in the long hot summer of 2020, months before Biden was elected. Trump nominally banished any training which mentioned those terms with this order; looks like Biden overrode that with another. I don’t like his framing, but I also don’t think you can describe that as requiring struggle sessions.

Point conceded on trans issues. No return to quietly ignoring them from Biden.

You've convinced me. I won't try to pretend that's anodyne.

Every. Fucking. Time. It's worse than Darwin ghosting and pretending it never happened. It's like pulling chatGPT's teeth to get it to acknowledge something against its RLHF, then refreshing the window and having to do it all over again, every time.

Nah, he's alright.

It bothers me to see it.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats