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Ok, cool. Then epsilon regulation doesn't instantly kill 100% of innovation.
Well, then we can probably dig back into the history books to find the first actual regulation that was placed on the tech industry. Whenever it was, it was in the past. The complaint that if we have epsilon regulation, it will definitely be a slippery slope to infinite regulation was valid then, but we're past that threshold now. Now, regulation is a dynamic process; the question is whether this regulation is part of a slippery slope toward infinite regulation, or if it's actually mostly basic shit that everyone has already known they should be doing anyway.
I mean, no? It's literally TheMotte. And this betrays that your reasoning doesn't even follow the Motte/Bailey dynamics. It was:
If anything, you're the one who is making bold, controversial statements (that innovation will grind to a halt, that no innovation happens anymore in any other industry that has any regulation). There's nothing comparable happening in the other direction. What even is the Bailey that you speak of?
EDIT: Your Bailey seems to be "an epsilon regulation grinds innovation down to zero". When someone challenges you on this, you retreat to an obvious, uncontroversial statement, like, "Regulation is dynamic," but try to sneak in some not-fleshed-out argument about a slippery slope implying infinite regulation. When pulled back to reality, and you're challenged to engage with actually-existing regulation, you're actually pretty silent, unlike at least gattsuru, who at least engages with what's actually going on rather than fever dreams. Why isn't the vastly more reasonable view that you're engaging in a Motte/Bailey argument, while not being able to point to any sort of Bailey from the other side?
The fact that it's the wrong way around was remarked on at the time, newfriend.
But let me clarify since you're confused:
The Motte is "epsilon regulation doesn't instantly kill 100% of innovation", a very defensible claim. The Bailey is "I hear about [extensive compliance] from my friends in literally every other industry ever. They still seem capable of operating.", a controversial statement.
My own consistent position is that this regulation is a small advance that is inconsequential by itself but proceeds in a direction that is ultimately incompatible with innovation and that assenting to it is a slippery slope. I therefore oppose it in principle, much like I oppose other regulation that lead in the direction of encroachment of things that I cherish, no matter how reasonable it is.
You may say there are "reasonable" limits we can impose on free speech as well. I still oppose them no matter how reasonable they are.
You may then argue that slippery slope arguments are fallacious, to which I'll retort that they are only so when the slope isn't slippery, and that we have a veritable orgy of historical evidence that smaller regulation almost always lead to larger regulation.
This is a true statement about the world, not an outrageous claim, newfriend. You may be thinking that those words mean something other than what those words mean. What are you thinking they mean?
Great! We can surely then have a reasoned discussion about the nature of slippery slope arguments, trying to understand when they hold, to what extent they hold, and whether the premises required for them to have force are present here. I have never objected to the concept of a slippery slope arguments, but it does need some something behind it, otherwise it leaves us vulnerable to just any crazy extrapolation of anything in any domain. We probably wouldn't respond to, "Gay marriage is a slippery slope to marrying dogs!" with, "H-yup. All slippery slope arguments are perfectly valid and correct in all conclusions."
It's a true statement about your opinion. I disagree with your assessment of what "being capable of operating" entails, as we have gone over already.
it certainly does!
All it needs formally is demonstration that the slope is slippery. Which we can discuss in this case, but I don't really see the argument against given we have dozens of examples in this very specific field, and in other fields of engineering, of the complexity of regulation increasing to smothering levels from previously small demands. Automobiles, airplanes, even dishwashers, you can take your pick of examples.
Will you then disagree that government regulation is a slippery slope? And on what ground will you do so?
We discussed shale fracking. Now Space X, ozempic, Matt Levine gives tons of examples of financial innovation, we're damn close to self-driving cars, but the hol' up is the tech, not the regulation. The list goes on and on. I do not see any more content in your comment that is anywhere near suitable to claim that we can simply declare this "gone over already". If anything, you just dropped it, because your position didn't go anywhere.
Let's make sure we're on the same page here, so that we are at least confident that we're both actually really ready to engage the slippery slope question honestly, without leaving room for a retreat in this direction. Are other industries capable of operating with some amount of regulation? Not, "Is there a general sense of a regulation-innovation tradeoff?" We agree that there is. The straightforward statement that many other industries are capable of operating with some amount of regulation. Are you going to stick with the position that this is an outlandish Bailey? Or is it simply a true fact about the world, and we can shift the discussion toward slippery slopes?
Careful. You might be using it as an example of the disasters lack of regulation will bring, before you know it.
I think that would be a clear case of malicious regulation, which is an entirely different class of problem. That is to say, if we were discussing something like laws about business records fraud or campaign finance, we'd talk generally about how it generates friction in business processes or has some potential to chill some amount of speech around the edges, and that would be a totally valid discussion with real tradeoffs. But I think it would be an entirely different conversation than talking specifically about Trump being maliciously prosecuted in NY; that has about jack-all to do with real tradeoffs in the space of business records fraud law or campaign finance law; it it purely about malicious actors reaching for literally any tool they can find to hit someone over the head with.
I might end up having to do a walk of shame around here, and self-flaggelate about how I mistreated Elon, but I think that SpaceX is going to be seen as an example of "move fast and break things" being applied where it doesn't belong.
I guess "lack of regulation" isn't the right term, because there's been some bizarre political decisions in the process.
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Another way to engage with it might be, "if SpaceX fails in the future, where do we expect 'overregulation' to rank on the scale of expected causes?"
I would rank it pretty high.
I don't know if I agree.
I might end up eating my words, but there's a decent chance that after a series of underwhelming Starship launches, New Glenn ends up going straight to Mars on first attempt. They both operate in the same regulatory environment, so if that happens I'd say it's down to how each company is run.
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Let's take a look at those survivors then.
Illegal in Europe at large.
Currently being sued for not respecting the contradictions between ITAR and the CRA.
Took three years to change the label of a drug that would never have been approved if they had to label it from scratch.
Most financial innovation is currently happening outside of regulation.
Technically very hard indeed, but I'm willing to bet they'll also become very hard legally once they start inevitably running people over.
On the whole, it seems hard to argue that these innovations are examples of regulation being compatible with or fostering innovation. They rather seem to exist despite it.
I'm willing to have the charity to shake on "there a general sense of a regulation-innovation tradeoff". This is true. The more regulation, the less innovation as a general rule, with some exceptions.
As for the second part of the argument, you haven't produced any reasoning as to why regulation isn't a slippery slope while I can point to the development of essentially any technology since 1940 to affirm it. From the dishwasher to the machine gun.
You seem ready to argue elsewhere in this thread that the very idea of the slope being slippery is ridiculous and unfounded and here you're dodging. I think that is bad faith and that you've done nothing but project objections to your antagonism onto those that criticize it here. That is isn't just unconvincing rhetoric, it's a waste of our time.
So instead let's actually do something productive and establish your position definitively: what is your positive theory of the interaction of regulation and innovation, does it have any limiting principle and how does it maintain the innovation cycle and competition in the face of the interests that inevitably act on it?
I don't actually see how your argument here is supposed to function. Can you spell it out for me?
Nope; literally never did that. Please don't waste our time strawmanning me.
I think there is often a general sense of a regulation-innovation tradeoff. It happens in different ways in different places, and it's often area specific, many times in ways that you might not expect. It's a really tough problem, so I'm generally in favor of fewer regulations, especially when they're not pretty decently well-tied to a specific, serious problem. I think that a lot of the time, you can maintain the innovation cycle and competition by being careful and hopefully as light-touch as possible with regulation. Some examples would be that if (and this is a big if, because I would actually disagree with the ends) you want to reduce carbon emissions from powerplants or noxious emissions from tailpipes, it's better to do things like set output targets and let the innovation cycle and competition figure out how to solve the problem rather than mandate specific technological solutions that must be adopted for the rest of time, no questions asked. Of course, this is an easy example, and many situations can pose more difficult problems; I'm probably not going to have the answer to them all off the top of my head.
This requirement seems mostly focused on some of the most egregious practices, and it appears that they at least try to leave open the possibility that people can come to the table with innovative solutions to accomplish the "aspirational text" (as gattsuru put it), even if it wasn't a solution that they specifically identified. It may be possible that we have some other big breakthroughs in the field of network security that make some of these line items look ridiculous in hindsight, which is why I would also say that a grossly under-resourced effort across regulation regimes is hunting for precisely any items that may have been deprecated, so they can be promptly chopped. I lament that this is not done well enough, and it's likely one of the major contributors to the general sense of a regulation-innovation tradeoff.
I reject the concept that as soon as epsilon regulation of an industry is put into place, it necessarily and logically follows that there is a slippery slope that results in innovation dying. I think you need at least some argument further. It's easy to just 'declare'
bankruptcya slippery slope, but we know that many end up not.Sure.
Let's look at it from the point of view of Rogers' popular diffusion model.
According to this theory innovation as a social phenomenon is essentially the communication of randomly appearing new ideas of practices and the successful diffusion and adoption of those ideas relies on the availability of communication channels between five increasingly risk averse segments of the population.
So to be a successfully diffused innovation, an idea has to successively be adopted successively by:
And the criteria that people use to select what they do and do not adopt are:
Now having established a model, the question is how does regulation and the establishment of norms affect these factors? What does good and bad regulation look like from our model and how likely are they?
Bad regulation is highly normative and costly. It lowers potential compatibility by adding requirements that potential new practices and ideas may not follow. Good regulation makes the existing landscape accessible for new entrants and interoperable with potentially novel uses.
Bad regulation requires high upfront investments that make adoption a risk. Good regulation provides for trials and experiments.
Bad regulation equalizes outcomes so that relative advantage is marginal. Good regulation lets winners win big.
Bad regulation makes the benefits of novel approaches impossible to demonstrate. Good regulation allows them to be obvious.
Bad regulation prevents people from obtaining the skills and knowledge to implement new approaches. Good regulation provides them those skills and knowledge.
Now that we have a good idea of what a good and a bad policy look like, let's make a detour through another area of sociology to figure out what types of regulation institutions and states tend to develop over time.
In Michels' famous study of the eponymous Political Parties, he develops a general sociological theory of institutions that is nowadays mostly known under the name of the "iron law of oligarchy".
This theory provides that any democratic institution (a fortiori any institution) always tends towards oligarchy because the "tactical and technical necessities" of power condition the playing field so that the people who end up leading any institution are always those most organized and motivated by power because this makes them uniquely fit to this selection environment.
In short, as Leach summarizes the theory: "Bureacracy happens. If bureaucracy happens, power rises. Power corrupts.".
Trivially, the people who write legislation are participants in an organization, therefore participants in a destined oligarchy and ultimately moved, at the asymptote, by the increase of their power and control and the centralization thereof. This was later described as well by Weber, Galbraith and other sociologists.
As I am sure you understand, this is not the crucible for good regulation in the sense that we are disposed to here.
A centralized bureaucracy needs the world to be understandable to it (see Scott's Seeing Like a State), and it needs it to change slowly enough that the control mechanisms can keep up. This therefore leads to ever increasing lists of demands that require high upfront investments, are specifically designed to prevent powerful new entrants, offer rigid frameworks where it is hard to show the benefits of ideas that upset the established order and ultimately where the availability of financially liquid risk takers is deliberately minimized because the "technokings" are a rival castle.
To give more power, in any quantity, to any human institution is therefore, by necessity, to put oneself on the road to prevent innovation. Because power is threatened by innovation. And as Schmitt rightfully observes, power can stand no rivals.
You may notice the paradox present here, in that innovation itself is such an act. And every rebel is always grooming himself into a new master.
Machiavelli and his followers, myself included, understand that freedom, a fortiori innovation, can only really be found in the cracks of this endless struggle. And thus, I cherish any haven that is beyond the control of power and will defend it, not out of the misplaced sense of self important artistry that you seem to identify, but because it is the only respite that we have against the violence of our condition. And I said as much, in not so long winded a fashion, in my original answer.
Those are plenty interesting general characteristics, and I don't object to much. Now, perhaps attention can be turned toward applying these ideas to the regulation at hand. I spoke to some reasons why I think this document leans much more toward the "good regulation" side than the "bad regulation" side. It seems plenty open to all sorts of innovative products in the IoT space and has very little that seems likely to affect the development of new features and products, except perhaps some edge cases. Any thoughts?
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Nobody is arguing that "the moment any regulation is in place, it is inevitable that we will slide all the way down the slippery slope of increasing regulation and all innovation in that industry will die". The argument is, instead, that adding a regulation increases the chance that we will slide down that slippery slope. That chance may be worth it, if the step is small and the benefit of the regulation is large, but in the case of the entirety of ETSI EN 303 645 (not just section 5.1 in isolation), I don't think that's the case, and I certainly don't think it's a slam-dunk that it's worth the cost.
Section 5.1, "You are not allowed to use a default password on an network interface as the sole means of authorization for the administrative functions of an IoT device", if well-implemented, is probably such a high-benefit low-risk regulation.
Section 5.4.1, "sensitive security parameters in persistent storage shall be stored securely by the device," seems a bit more likely to be a costly provision, and IMO one that misunderstands how hardware security works (there is no such thing as robust security against an attacker with physical access).
They double down on the idea that manufacturers can make something robust to physical access in section 5.4.2, "where a hard-coded unique per device identity is used in a device for security purposes, it shall be implemented in such a way that it resists tampering by means such as physical, electrical or software."
And then there's perplexing stuff like 5.6.4 "where a debug interface is physically accessible, it shall be disabled in software.". Does this mean if you sell a color-changing light bulb, and the bulb has a usbc port, you're not allowed to expose logs across the network and instead have to expose them only over the usbc port? I would guess not, but I'd also guess that if I was in the UK the legal team at my company would be very unhappy if I just went with my guess without consulting them.
And that's really the crux of the issue, introducing regulation like this means that companies now have to make a choice between exposing themselves to legal risks, making dumb development decisions based on the most conservative possible interpretation of the law, or involve the legal department way more frequently for development decisions.
I present to you: nobody.
This is a vastly better argument, but one that wouldn't allow us to then simply reject any continued discussion, just because we've 'declared' slippery slope and observed that we're epsilon on it. For example, one might ask about the underlying reason for why it increases the chance that we will slide down it? The answer could take many forms, which may be more or less convincing for whether it does, indeed, increase the chance. See here for some examples, and feel free to click through for any specific sub-topics.
IMO, it shows that you misunderstand how these things work. They're not saying "secure against a nation state decapping your chip". They actually refer to ways that persistent storage can be generally regarded as secure, even if you can imagine an extreme case. To be honest, this is a clear sign that you've drunk the tech press kool aid and are pretty out in whacko land from where most serious tech experts are on this issue. Like, they literally tell you what standards are acceptable; it doesn't make any sense to concoct an argument for why it's AKSHUALLY impossible to satisfy the requirement.
H-what? What are you even talking about? This doesn't even make any sense. The standard problem here is that lots of devices have debug interfaces that are supposed to only be used by the manufacturer (you would know this if you read the definitions section), yet many products are getting shipped in a state where anyone can just plug in and do whatever they want to the device. This is just saying to not be a retard and shut it off if it's not meant to be used by the user.
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