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Notes -
Sorry for that long of a delay. Anyway, here I am.
Yes, I think you'd mentioned this earlier.
I think there's more to the passage than your account of the verses. Verses 6-8 treat the crediting righteousness as consisting in the not-imputing sin, I think. Also relevant is that the passage is not treating it as a single righteous deed to add to a ledger, but that it itself constitutes righteousness whereby we are accepted before God. I'd also point out that arguably, if our acceptance is based off of something inherent in us, that that would be something that is our due, not a gift, per verse 5.
Yes, I am aware that that exists, though I have no idea of the extent of the agreement, or of the orthodoxy of those involved. I haven't examined it.
It is pretty clear from the passage, I think, that the passage is arguing for non-imputation, at least. That's what Romans 4:6-8 is clearly describing. Does this involve "deceiving and being deceived"?
But Paul isn't talking about that. What Paul is referring to is specifically that having one's sins forgiven, covered, not counted against oneself suffices to make one blessed. The focus is not on how that is attained, but upon how the blessing (and, per verse 6 and verse 9, righteousness) consists in the forgiveness of sins.
Yes, the word has that in its semantic range. In 4:8, it is also used to say that the sin is not counted (same word). But that isn't to say that the sin never happened.
Or see Mark 15:28, where the same word is used to say that Jesus "was numbered with the transgressors." Or 2 Cor 5:19, "that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them."
So this doesn't seem out there, to me.
Catholics believe in the forgiveness of sins. What are you arguing against?
The proposition that there will neither be sin nor attachment to sin in Heaven?
The proposition that at some point, (in this life or in the next) sinful people lose their attachment to sin through the graces of Jesus' death and Resurrection?
That this purification requires some assent of the sinner's will, some kind of cooperation with Jesus?
Can you go to Heaven without loving God and Neighbor?
Can you love God without keeping His commandments and repenting if you fail?
Can you keep God's commandments without doing good works?
Do good works happen automatically, or does the Christian need to accept Jesus's graces? In other words, can a Christian reject Jesus' graces and refuse to do good works?
I'll begin by addressing the specific propositions:
I affirm the proposition.
I affirm the proposition.
I affirm the proposition. (Though I don't know if I'd qualify that in different ways that you do.)
Yes, and no. No, you cannot go to heaven without loving God and neighbor to some extent. At the same time, we do not go by the fulfilling of Christ's commandment there. But when we are there, we will follow the commandment properly.
Loving God will lead naturally to a life of repentance. To quote the first of the 95 theses, "Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance"
No.
I don't see how those are synonymous. In any case, I would say that good works do involve human action and assent, but that that is itself wrought by the work of the Holy Spirit in us.
Okay, so I could affirm with almost every proposition you submitted, but I don't agree with the overall argument that you are making.
Yes, I agree that our lives are increasingly conformed, until ultimately we are perfected, in the life to come.
And I think this is necessary, that the lives of Christians cannot be otherwise. But because I do not think that we will meet the standard of God's law in this life, I do not think that our conformity to the commandment can be the basis of our acceptance. And as Paul writes, "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”"
We do not enter heaven by loving God and our neighbor, except by the forgiveness of the faults in those very acts of love, and in those works. In a very real sense, we enter despite even our best works, best affections, best desires.
So then back to my original quote. Yes, of course catholics believe in the forgiveness of sins. But my point is that the forgiveness of sins is inherently dealing in matters relating to imputation: is the sin counted or not counted to you, and that it is that, the being gratuitously counted as righteous in spite of our merits, that Paul is highlighting in the passage there. What Paul is saying is not that David had some kind of repentance and so inner righteousness and so was forgiven and considered blessed. Rather, his focus is solely on how David is blessed and righteous because he is forgiven, rather than because of works done. Note the direction of how righteousness relates to forgiveness of sins and being blessed in the last two sentences.
I think you are correct for many, if not most Christians. But I also genuinely believe that many of the saints were able to completely cease all inclination to sin in this life. And I believe that for the the rest it happens during Purgation after death.
100% agreed here, we can only enter heaven by Jesus's sacrifice.
When a sin is forgiven it is forgiven because God forgives it. God does not count the sin on you, yes. Jesus has told visionaries that He can't even remember the sins they've confessed. (Obviously a bit of a metaphor, as God knows everything.)
I think the radical thing Catholics believe, that you disagree with, is that the forgiveness of sins is not itself sufficient for Heaven. (The forgiveness of sins means that a Christian is going to Heaven, but it doesn't mean by itself that the Christian is ready for Heaven.) In order for Heaven to not be a tyranny, the people in it need to have willingly let go of attachments to sin as well. We lose this attachment in this life, little by little, by willfully forming the habit of conforming to God's will. And if there is any attachment to sin left over at the moment of death, it needs to be removed by the cooperation of God and the sinner. (Put out of your head any specific idea of a place of Purgatory. I'm referencing just the idea of purgation, whether that's an instantaneous change or a difficult trial.)
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
I agree.
I of course agree that our will needs to be transformed and conformed to God's.
The saints are very disgusted with their faults, more so than the average sinner. But that verse also does not exclude the possibility of a saint having sinned in the past, but over time has shed the habit of sin. After all, the next verse is "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Well, it's in the present tense (sorry to bring up tenses again), so something present definitely seems more likely to me. As well as just, are people really that likely to say that they never sinned in their lives?
We were all born guilty of original sin; we have fallen, and still frequently fall into lesser sins and failings. The point John is making is that we need Jesus as a savior because we cannot fight sin on our own. It's not a statement that everyone commits a personal sin every day, hour, minute? How often does one need to commit a personal sin to qualify for the present tense? Are you sinning right now?
I have sin in me, I have a weak will, darkened mind, and rebellious body given to me through the sin of my first parents. That doesn't mean I'm sinning right now.
I sin less now than I did ten years ago, and hopefully will keep that trajectory. My attachment to several sinful things has decreased, in some cases to 0. Is believing in improvement antithetical to the Gospel? I hope on the last day of my life I do not sin at all. Does that contradict 1 John 1?
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You know you guys are splitting hairs over something that to people looking in from a rational outside perspective is all just make-believe. You're arguing over fantasy stories like they are real.
Rationally, you should be seeking out infinites to optimize around, for Pascal's wager-ish reasons, and Christianity seems as likely a one as any.
Anyway, if you have an argument, feel free to make it (once the ban's over), but mere assertions that others are talking about nonsense is unproductive.
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Since you got temp banned I’d like to say that I very much enjoy a lot of your posts and strongly encourage you to limit this kind of thing. I’m an atheist too but it’s impolite to drive by with this kind of comment.
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Look, you weren't part of this conversation, but you felt a need to drop a shit in the middle of it why?
In a very short period of time, you've established that you're an antagonistic jerk who shits on conversations like it's your hobby.
You're getting a 3-day timeout for this. If you want to continue participating here, stop treating this place like somewhere you go to drunkpost and sneer.
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If people can argue over games and Marvel movies, and it is legitimate demand to ask for Representation in fantasy TV shows so as to match up with the real world, then we can argue over religion. Nobody is tying you to a chair and forcing you to read these comments.
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