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PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   26709 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 22, 2024

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The gore is a feature, a token of our respect for life. We’re not “putting people to sleep” here. Each juror should get a splash when the blade falls. They shouldn’t eat meat if they can’t kill the animal.

I like your avoiding the Nietzsche last man vibe.

But, this is going to be a problematic jury selection, no? “Would you be able to vote to convict this man if his head might bounce into your lap during his execution?”

Might be really bad to have a jury made up exclusively of people who say yes to that.

Would you demand that someone not rent to gay people, or otherwise profit off of gays, if they can't bear to watch gay sex? If they can't bear to watch an operation, do we forbid them from being operated on?

Squeamishness is not a source of morality.

Squeamishness fails to be a robust source of morality, but it is an excellent trigger for introspection. If someone is squeamish about a decision, they should ask themselves why - the response isn't being called for no particular reason, it's because something is happening that evokes danger, threat, or disgust. In the case of an operation, we would find that the squeamishness is not a product of an immoral action, but a product of the danger associated with open wounds and body integrity violations. Even though operations are often incredibly strong net value, it is worth considering for a moment what exactly you're signing up for - your bodily integrity will be violated, you will have an open wound, and this carries risk. It's not trivial and shouldn't be treated as trivial.

I think in cases like war and executions, it’s a decent requirement simply because I think that if what you’re voting for is the death of a human being, you ought to be willing to face that directly. I wouldn’t want someone to vote for a war and never be willing to face the full extent of what voting for war actually means. It’s death, you’re voting to kill, you should face the full horror of what that means.

How could the same argument not be made about everything that people feel disgust about? "If you're willing to hire gay people but you're not willing to face the full extent of what gay actually means...."

Because there's no causal element involved there. Your hiring of a gay person has no effect on whether they're gay or not. Unlike the convict who wouldn't be executed but for your vote.

You can do things that help them live a life where they have sex that disgusts you, or you can discourage such a life.. Social pressure is a thing and I don't believe for a moment that if nobody hired gays, there would be exactly the same amount of gay sex around.

And you certainly wouldn't have an operation if you didn't hire someone to operate on you.

Squeamishness often covers a lie. We tell children that their beloved pets have gone to a happy farm. The meat comes from the store. The death row criminal humanely goes to sleep. Extreme squeamishness requires euphemisms which compromise the truth, our model of the world.

Unlike igi, I do think there are other sources of morality, but still the emotional punch associated with death and violence is morally helpful, and should not be easily sidestepped. Or one day we could find ourselves processing units when we are in fact murdering people.

Squeanmishness is not a source of morality.

Except it literally is. Morality isn't some abstract platonic idea, it's a taste or feeling people evolved, and the sick feeling you get when you drench yourself in the gore of your fellow man is part of it.

I'll go as far as to say that things are immoral because they feel distasteful and for no other reason. Any rationale you can name is a post-hoc rationalization. When surveyed people act according to taste, not to some Kantian formalized system of ethics. We may wish it otherwise, but morality as an actual real world phenomenon is not a pure reason object.

Understanding this means understanding that people act immorally when they are not confronted directly enough with the consequences of their actions (or are themselves deficient). And thus recommending they be brought closer is fitting.

I'll go as far as to say that things are immoral because they feel distasteful and for no other reason

Is gay sex immoral? Plenty of people find it distasteful.

I think you'll find a lot of that same plenty find it immoral too.

Unless you're talking about Catholics, anti-death-penalty sentiment seems to usually come from the left and anti-gay from the right, so I doubt that.

I don't think it's very reasonable to exclude the most popular religion in the world from moral consideration, but more importantly I don't understand how this proposition slots in with anything I've said so far.

Most people favor the death penalty in the abstract. How many are okay with swinging the axe themselves?

Most people favor the death penalty in the abstract. How many are okay with swinging the axe themselves?

If you found out the vast majority would be happy to, would that change your mind about anything?

I don't really want to re-litigate it but I've here debated this particular point about how averse humans truly are to killing often enough I've walked people through the implications enough times.

How and why people can be turned into einsatzgruppen is pretty significant and some of my political positions are motivated by what I think about that.

Not my ultimate moral positions of course, since I too am human.

Understanding this means understanding that people act immorally when they are not confronted directly enough with the consequences of their actions (or are themselves deficient). And thus recommending they be brought closer is fitting.

If that goes for the jury, it goes for the criminal as well, which is a good reason to put him to death (I assume Alabama's been killing murderers, not jaywalkers). Demanding each juror "get a splash" is just attempting to gratuitously heighten the disgust impulse.

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