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PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   4055 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for January 14, 2024

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

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I don't want them shot in the head. Mods are janitors, mall cops, their use of lethal force should be strongly restricted.

Mods are judge, jury and executioner, and the legislative branch. They are the ones who set up and run the space, therefore they get to decide everything. If Zorba wants to shut the site down entirely that is his prerogative. We don't have any rights in a space, we didn't create and don't help run. We don't even pay taxes!

In other words this is not our house, it is Zorbas and as per the Castle doctrine, he is quite entitled to "shoot" anyone he doesn't want here. Think of yourself as a guest, and consider the host has an absolute right to throw you out, if you do not behave the way they want you too.

The fact Zorba handles that generally with a light touch (as do his deputies) is irrelevant. That is the cold hard truth of the matter.

You're obviously correct, but FWIW I think it's best to be gentle hosts, since Zorba and the mods are also (I presume) very interested in attracting rather than repelling new blood.

Oh absolutely I agree. Being too harsh is likely to be detrimental to the health of the space. I was mainly arguing against the "mods are just janitors" point. They are clearly much more than that, and I think not recognizing that is a flaw.

I take great pains to, including commending new posters who are doing things right.

And in a more general manner, we have AAQCs, and once in a blue moon, you might get drafted to help elect the new mods or become one yourself.

We would, of course, prefer that every comer is maximally civil, curious and earnest from the start, but to the extent incentives matter, we try to be carrot as well as stick.

And it does seem to work. We're still here, a functioning community.

Look, let's be clear here: comparing a permaban to being shot in the head is just silly. This is a small niche forum, restricting your ability to post here is not killing you or even infringing your precious "freedom of speech" to an appreciable degree. We do care about freedom of speech which is why permabans are not applied casually. But there are rules here, you can like them or not, choose to follow them or not, you can even argue endlessly with us about how they should be enforced and whether they should be changed. Nonetheless, the rules exist and we enforce them with careful (if imperfect) consideration, and the people who get permabanned are people who, in every single case, made a deliberate choice to say "fuck your rules." And even then, as you have observed yourself, it's pretty easy to come back as an alt as long as you don't make yourself too obvious. So please stop with the histrionics about how mod punishments are like a cop shooting someone over a traffic ticket.

And even then, as you have observed yourself, it's pretty easy to come back as an alt as long as you don't make yourself too obvious.

This solution filters out good faith participants who will just leave as directed, while the worst stay. But if you tell me it’s unofficially tolerated, then I have to agree that a long ban is no big deal for freedom of speech purposes, but then, what is even the point of handing it out.

But if you tell me it’s unofficially tolerated

It's not, it's just that we don't have a 100% accurate way to detect alts, and we tend to err on the side of allowing false negatives vs banning false positives.

You have to take responsibility then, and endure my tedious metaphors, like I endure your knife on my throat. The fact is, with the centralisation and censorship on large platforms, there aren’t many available alternatives anymore, so a long ban does represent a significant infringement on a commenter's freedom of speech, more than it used to.

You have to take responsibility then, and endure my tedious metaphors, like I endure your knife on my throat

Well, I can't stop you from posting whatever tedious and hyperbolic metaphors you like. But if your goal is to have your alleged concerns taken seriously, you are not achieving it.

Let me try again: you banned me (and warned @BurdensomeCount ) for this, and later banned him for something similar.

From one perspective, the pro-civility one, he ‘insulted’ my western-liberal conception of honor and ‘baited’ us, and I ‘bit back’ by insulting his islam-inspired version of honor. This perspective ignores our ideas and sees us as just two guys vying for status.

But the underlying truth is that each of us feels utter contempt for the other’s conception of honor, and no amount of civility can change that. It can only obscure it. Our disagreement isn't personal. This kind of fundamental value difference is precisely what the motte exists to discuss. I think I’m stoic enough that the honest insult/criticism of my worldview does not result in an ego-driven shit-flinging fest, and so is he. Therefore your attempt to preemptively and violently smother the fire was unnecessary.

A question that sounds snarky and rhetorical, but is actually serious: Why don't you guys just argue with each other privately?

Why indeed? If you move to DMs over any of a hundred systems, you can sling as much crap as you want at each other, and nobody will judge you or mod you or ban you for doing so. So why not? The only reason that makes sense IMO is that the audience matters. Everybody here has to see it, or at least be able to see it.

But what of the effect that has on the place? I see that you don't feel offended or put off by the argument. What of the audience though? They're important - they must be, or you wouldn't be interested in posting it publicly. I've come to think that, to use another Wire quote, all the pieces matter.

Regardless of whether you or BC are super offended by the debate, when everybody sees it, and sees it not being modded, it changes the tone of the whole place. It becomes just that little bit more acceptable to trash your debate partner rather than discuss civilly. People who love that are more likely to come and stay, and people who don't will disengage and drift away. Even more importantly, it changes peoples behavior just a bit. Nobody is perfectly combative or perfectly civilized. It's a signal to turn off the civilized part and dial up the combat part. And that does in fact matter, even if we'd rather it didn't or it isn't immediately obvious.

The same points can be made perfectly well without the personal attacks. Perhaps even better. Even if I think User X is a great big jerk, it's not conducive to a reasonable conversation to just call them a jerk. It's perfectly possible for me to be the calm and reasonable one and make my points without the insults. If I do it right, and I'm right that they're a jerk, then they will show themselves to be one to the audience in short order. The audience is a lot more likely to believe it when they see it for themselves over just me telling them.

My goal isn’t to ‘sling crap’. And I don’t consider mine or his comment personal attacks, they’re legitimate points.

Regardless of whether you or BC are super offended by the debate, when everybody sees it, and sees it not being modded, it changes the tone of the whole place. It becomes just that little bit more acceptable to trash your debate partner rather than discuss civilly.

The other side of the coin is that banning people has a chilling effect on free expression, especially the expression of controversial views, until the place turns into a stuffy dinner party, where people politely avoid all heavy subjects like politics and religion, and just nervously talk about drapes and outside temperature and stuff.

If you two want to go settle it with pistols at dawn, fill your boots.

Somewhere else.

Here, you will conform to the civility rules that this place was founded on and which most of the community prefers over what you want.

I do not care that you don't like the rules.

I wasn't trying to fight BC.

Maybe it was a bit harsh of you, no, nothing? Just Marlo threatening to shoot people in the head. Okay.

I mean, sure, you might want that. And that's fine, but it's also never going to happen. Even 4chan is not Free Speech Maximalist, try posting CSAM and see where that gets you.

Given that Kulak didn't get anything but a warning, and a mild one, which is mostly ameliorated by the fact he acknowledged he was overreacting, BC is only gone for a month, and Hlynka is already back, it is not so much as anyone being "shot in the head" as the local Sheriff throwing some of the pub regulars in the drunk tank.

The people who are kicked off the site for good, and their alts banned relentlessly, have it coming.

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