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PaperclipPerfector  11mo ago (text post)   29676 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 18, 2023

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I'll just put this out there- I think Canada should merge with the US. And arguably should have a long time ago.

  • Canada's talented engineers (who also conveniently speak English) can easily move to the US and find jobs, instead of trying to kickstart some mini Canadian engineering industry that competes with Silicon Valley
  • American Oil companies can help develop Canada's massive oil deposits and other natural resources, which cost a lot to develop and would benefit from economics of scale
  • Average Canadians can move south for a warmer climate, instead of trying to cram into the few livable spots of Canada like Vancouver
  • Crazy Americans who want to live in the far north can do so, helping to maintain the infrastructure in what might actually become an important area of the world (the Northwest passage, and a border to Russian Airspace)
  • Fewer silly disputes over things like Oil and Lumber tariffs
  • Quebec would fit in nicely as yet another ethnic/language minority in the US, instead of being this one persecuted minority in Canada with a chip on its shoulder
  • We're already pretty well integrated though things like NAFTA and NATO

No clue how this would shake up politically, but I would think it would make both nations more moderate. The US certainly wouldn't vote for Trudeau.

Quebec would fit in nicely as yet another ethnic/language minority in the US

Historically the rent and lifestyle would have been good enough that we'd have been immediately flooded with Americans, destroying the local culture.

As it is, Rest-of-Canadians have been doing this all by themselves.

I think my biggest question for a scenario like this would be, "What happens to all the crown land?"

I'll take it!

As a general rule, countries just plain don't want to merge with other countries. The expections are cases like the two Germanies, which didn't even formally see themselves as two countries but as one country with two competing governments, even before the reunification. The European elites have tried to push EU to become a federation for over half a century with this process progressing at a snail's pace at its fastest, with the last 15 years having been spent in an economic muddle as a result things being in a limbo after the last major integration - the Euro - having been exposed by the 2008 crisis to have major problems that have been fixed with fix-tire-with-bubblegum style measures.

Sure, but Rome wasn't built in a day. The EU, despite its flaws, has held together, and my impression is that the smaller central Europe states like Luxembourg, Lichtenstein, etc are really losing their identity as an independant country. It also took a long time for all the kingdoms of the HRE to unify into Germany, but it happened eventually.

No clue how this would shake up politically

Unrelenting disaster as the Democrats merged with the majority of Canadians and screwed up American politics.

This is politically impossible. Canadians have a very strong national identity which is based at its core - and on little else - on not being American. Remember, it's the only country in the world that was actually founded in direct opposition to the principles on which the US was founded. The entire point of Canada, for its entire history, has been to not be part of the United States. Furthermore, the Canadian population has been heavily selected over 250 years for people who don't want to be Americans. So despite the cultural similarities, most Canadians very much don't want to be part of the United States.

Most Canadians don't appreciate how much richer the US is, and those who do, mostly think it's only the very richest who are better off. They falsely believe that the average person is richer in Canada.

There are also constitutional issues. Quebec's language laws would violate the first amendment, and nothing is more important to French speaking Quebeckers than protecting their language. They would far sooner become independent than give up control over what language speak in order to join the US.

Our gun control laws would violate the second amendment, and most Canadians have no interest in giving up their safety in order to have that right. There are lots of Canadians who like to hunt and are upset and some of the recent changes to the gun laws, but there is nothing like the broad support that the second amendment has among American conservatives. The gun situation in the US is seen by most Canadians as crazy. and it would be top of mind in any discussion about joining the US.

Canada's talented engineers (who also conveniently speak English) can easily move to the US and find jobs, instead of trying to kickstart some mini Canadian engineering industry that competes with Silicon Valley

Most Canadians wouldn't see this as a good thing and would prefer to keep them here where they can support our local industry.

American Oil companies can help develop Canada's massive oil deposits and other natural resources, which cost a lot to develop and would benefit from economics of scale

Is there something preventing them from doing this now? The environmentalist movement is very strong in Canada, and outside Alberta, most people don't actually want the oil industry to be further developed.

Quebec would fit in nicely as yet another ethnic/language minority in the US, instead of being this one persecuted minority in Canada with a chip on its shoulder

Quebec isn't persecuted in any way and has much more autonomy than it would as part of the United States, in particular, regarding laws on language usage and immigration. It would also face more pressure to assimilate into anglophone culture. Canada has a lot of federal laws enforcing bilingualism in the rest of the country. These wouldn't exist if it were part of the US, and Quebec's exposure to anglophone culture would increase. Quebec also receives large subsidies from the richer parts of the country as part of Canada's equalization payment system, which the US doesn't have.

It would also lose its ability to separate. US states don't have the right to secede, whereas in Canada, it is not clear, but they likely can if there is enough support among the province's residents. Quebec separatism may be dormant, but francophone Quebeckers do not really see themselves as Canadian and it's quite possible Quebec will try to separate again in the future if it's relationship with the rest of Canada worsens. It would not want to give up that option.

Furthermore, the Canadian population has been heavily selected over 250 years for people who don't want to be Americans

What does this mean?

For most of history, Canadians could just move to the US. There were no immigration restrictions. And even today, it's one of the easier countries to move to the US from. It also used to be easier and more attractive to move to the US than to move to Canada. So most Canadians are descended from people who either chose to move to Canada over the US or chose to stay in Canada and not move to the US, generation after generation, despite the worse weather and the worse economy.

It also might be worth noting that tens of thousands of loyalists from the 13 colonies moved to Canada during the American Revolutionary War, and this was at a time when the population of what is now Canada was only about 150,000 or so. So a non-trivial fraction of Canada's founding stock were people who fled what ended up becoming the United States for political reasons, sometimes because of well-justified fears of violent repression from the revolutionaries.

Yes, that's part of what I was referring to. In fact, most of the population was French when the loyalists came. The loyalists basically were the founding stock of English Canada, while the French had their own reasons for not joining the US in their rebellion.

This is politically impossible. Canadians have a very strong national identity which is based at its core - and on little else - on not being American. Remember, it's the only country in the world that was actually founded in direct opposition to the principles on which the US was founded.

By this logic, shouldn't they still be part of the UK? They were founded on staying loyal to the British Crown, the US didn't even exist at that time.

Otherwise you make good points.

It was never part of the UK, but I understand what you mean. The reasons for being anti-American have changed, but there is still a strong anti-American feeling.

Well, they never were "part" of the UK, they were a collection of separate colonies in the Empire and then a Dominion.

And they're still loyal to the crown, it's just that all the imperial dominions that liked Elizabeth just pinkie-promised each other it wasn't the British monarch ruling them any more, it was the monarch of Canada, or Australia, etc. Except they all so happen to be the same monarch.

Personal union isn't so uncommon historically, but I still find the situation where all the countries have to agree to change the line of succession or affirm a new monarch to be a bit clunky and silly. Honestly, that's probably my take on constitutional monarchy itself, though I go back and forth between thinking it's kind of a neat thing to have a symbolic figurehead people can unite behind, and thinking it's insane and inhuman that Charles has all this power on paper but in practice he's damn near a slave-by-birth to the prime ministers of the countries he supposedly rules. I somewhat respect Edward for having the gumption to just say 'no,' and nope out, but that admiration is tempered by the part where he probably tried to get the Nazis to reinstate him if they conquered the UK. I kind of like the Sweden thing where they rewrote the constitution to remove the king from governance while maintaining him as a cultural figure.

I'm pretty sure America would elect Trudeau or his American equivalent for the foreseeable future if Canadian provinces were all awarded electoral votes. And America would be saddled with all of the low-skill immigrants that are causing the housing crisis. Large enterprises might benefit, but I don't think the average American would. It might have worked if it had been done 40 years ago.

I think Trudeau is specifically Canadian because of his famous family. I guess RFK might be an American equivalent, but his politics are pretty different.

What if we also merge with Mexico?

What if we also merge with Mexico?

Only over John C. Calhoun's dead body first.

John C. Calhoun, speech on Mexico (January 4, 1848).

The next reason assigned is, that either holding Mexico as a province, or incorporating her into the Union, would be unprecedented by any example in our history. We have conquered many of the neighboring tribes of Indians, but we have never thought of holding them in subjection, or of incorporating them into our Union. They have been left as an independent people in the midst of us, or have been driven back into the forests. Nor have we ever incorporated into the Union any but the Caucasian race. To incorporate Mexico, would be the first departure of the kind; for more than half of its population are pure Indians, and by far the larger portion of the residue mixed blood.

I protest against the incorporation of such a people. Ours is the Government of the white man.

lol awesome quote. How did you have that on hand so fast?

On the other hand, given politics, John Calhoun being against it is probably a point in favor of the idea... that guy is not a popular historical leader anymore...

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