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PaperclipPerfector  11mo ago (text post)   27243 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 11, 2023

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Why, if it does no harm?

The harm is the complexity of creating a policy that allows innocuous things but does not permit obnoxious or offensive things. The bureaucratic burden of having to decide that, say, posting pictures of a ski trip is fine, but posting pictures of a religious retreat is not, pictures of political protesting, or posting pictures of a gay wedding reception - it's all just so tiresome. It's a given that there are people who constantly push the limits of any policy in an obnoxious way, so it's entirely reasonable to set a simple bright-line rule that veers widely on the side of inoffensiveness.

And yet somehow thousands of schools manage to negotiate that ostensible labyrinth with little trouble.

Presumably those schools have fewer people trying to push the limits of the policy.

You can't assume that teachers are going to follow these policies in good faith, which is why we can't have nice things.

Fewer than what? When I said "thousands of schools manage to negotiate that ostensible labyrinth with little trouble," I meant virtually every school allows teachers to decorate their rooms as they see fit, as long as they don't violate controversial issues policies or include decorations that are inappropriate for children somehow. You are making a claim based on zero evidence of what constitutes the norm.

To rephrase: Thousands of schools manage to do it because the teachers in them are acting in good faith and aren't trying to push the limits. That doesn't prevent problems in other schools where the teachers are trying to push the limits.

No one claims there are no problems. I have seen such problems myself. But the claim that a blanket ban on all displays is necessary to address those problems is a claim that is not supported by any evidence.

How do you know the schools are successfully navigating it, rather than the controversial nature of said decorations just being hidden from parents, or schools just ignoring complaints?

Experience.

More importantly, the burden of proof is on schools to justify limitations on the personal liberty of their employees. So the burden lies on OP to show that the problem exists, not on me or anyone else to show that the problem does not exist.

Wait, how'd we get to civil liberties? We're talking about decorations on public property. As far as I know there is no such liberty and demanding the walls be painted blank white would violate no actual rights.

We are talking about limiting the free expression rights of public employees in the workplace. That might not be the most weighty of civil liberties, but it is not zero. Whether the First Amendment protects that right under current jurisprudence is separate question.

Public employees already have very controlled expression rights on the job. This argument seems really silly. Public employees are entrusted with unusual power and those powers come with limitations on speech while wielding that power. You would not be confused about this if cop cars were decked out in trump gear. They're decorating public property.

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How do you propose he do that? From what I heard American schools are notorious for blocking public scrutiny, so barring some teacher proudly uploading his controversial material to TikTok, how is the public supposed to know it's even happening?

  1. If he does not have evidence for his claim, then he should not be making that claim
  2. If what you say is true, then it is even harder to prove that it is not happening, right?
  3. It is exceptionally easy to find out what is happening in schools: Ask students.

And, let me see if I understand your position: Because schools (supposedly, based on "what [you] heard") block public scrutiny, those very same schools get a pass re proving that restricting the civil liberties of their employees is justified?

And, let me see if I understand your position

You didn't. I used to do the 00's era Skeptic "where is the evidence?" thing to, and my point is that demanding evidence for things where no one has a way to collect it makes no sense. You can have a perfectly normal conversation based on each person's personal experience, where you accept nothing is going to be conclusively proven, but you're acting like you want to have it both way - demand hard evidence for anyone contradicting you, while relying on personal experience when putting forward your ideas.

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