Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?
This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.
Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I could have put this in Wellness Wednesday, but I'll phrase this as a question:
When am I allowed to mace a hobo?
The story: I'm working at a food stand at a winter market festival downtown for a month. It's over $25/hr after the copious tips, and short 6-hour shifts, but my ulterior motive is about getting an In with the bar running it, and just to network amongst the Hospitality Folk.
But, this means I'm taking the CTA for a change, and thus keep seeing things that can't be unseen. The other day, there's a ranting man on the opposite platform, wandering up and down it, shouting nonsense. Not old, bent, or decrepit, cheap clothes that are still in one piece. I'm waiting for my train, and see him eventually fixate on a woman and start leaning in to her and gabbling. She stands there frozen and ignores him as he shuffles around her like a giant annoying pigeon. There's a bunch of back-and-forth of this guy wandering away, coming back, going down the stairs, then back up, then looming over her and gabbling at her. I'm staring the whole time with what must have been a thunderous expression, the woman meets my gaze a few times and mouths something once. Both of them are black, incidentally; she looks like a nurse or something adjacent: South-Side Respectable. I'm trying very very hard to control my temper and not escalate the situation, actual physical harm in these situations is pretty rare, this is just emotionally harrowing for the poor woman.
He wanders away a bit and she makes a move for the stairs, I see him start to follow, and I've finally had e-fucking-nough. I go down the stairs and meet her sheltering by the turnstyles. He sees me and stops on the stairs, starts going up and down them, in that attempt to be nonchalant that the mentally ill always fail at. My train is a minute away, she's crying, I say it's okay, and shout to the attendant "Hey, there's a ranty hobo that isn't leaving this woman alone. She needs help."
With my train arriving and my shift starting soon, I go back up to my platform, get on the train, and see though the window that same woman, standing on the platform, crying, while the hobo stands behind her gabbling. She's got her own train to catch. This is what I'm left with as my train leaves the station.
After, of course, I realize the optimal move would have been to being her up to my platform, get on my train til the next hobo-free platform, then continue on her way. My presence alone would probably have dissuaded him. But I didn't want to be late, I didn't want to escalate the situation, and I didn't want to be tempted to beat up a brain-rotted hobo.
Cut to work.
Background: One of my fellow döner-kabob-slingers is a early-30s woman that I was initially a bit taken with; she introduced herself to me as recently-divorced, asked me if I had a partner or not, and just generally paid way more attention to me than I'm accustomed to (which felt good, because it doesn't happen much, which made me sad. But also made me uncomfortable, because of the unfamiliarity of it, which also made me sad.) There's a bit more incidental physical contact from her than necessary. She's skinny and wide-faced and granola-y, we talk about nature and wildlife stuff; she's involved with urban ecology project planning and...equity. Dang. Also, I later overhear her talking about Polyamory or some shit (Polyamory as practiced by women is just laundered Friendzoning/Cucking, Polyamory as practiced my men is just laundered Playa-ing. She wants to fuck around but needs a buzzword for it). So my interest is...reduced. The woman who mutilated my heart in 2019 was also a recently-separated devorcé, fool me once and all that.
Anyways, I arrive at work all bent out of shape and want to talk about it. So I ask my not-crush, as someone who's lived in Chicago for a while, and as a woman, if stuff like that ever happens to her and what bystanders can do to help without making the situation worse. I narrarate the story pretty much as I do here. (I leave out the part about them both being black, it isn't relevant). I'm genuinely looking for advice, but I also want to untangle my feelings, and, yeah, I want to convey to her that I'm the sort of person that struggles to not White Knight.
The first thing she says?
The walls go up inside me. She's Orthodox Woke. "Yes, I should have been more technical: Bum, Gabbling Stalker Variant, Able-Bodied."
"I'll go tell that woman to not cry, then, it's Ronald Reagan's fault for kicking him out of his mental hospital."
So that's the story of how I stopped being attracted to someone.
Just to quickly double-check, I ran this story past a close female friend who moved here from Nebraska, and an apolitical Chicago native bartender, and both had different flavors of "What the actual fuck?" Reactions. She was speechless, he laughed.
Because of stuff that's happened to me, I carry a can of mace on my keys. But I notice my hand going for it in situations like this, where I'm almost looking for an excuse to use it, and I'm worried I'm eventually going to spray a particularly-annoying panhandler in the face.
There are two questions here:
1: When are you allowed to mace a hobo? If you're a straight white male in Chicago, probably never. The system sees you as the enemy. You've let on that you are straight and male. If you're white, you're out of luck. If you're black, you get some slack, but not that much if straight, male, and middle-class.
2: When should you mace a hobo? South Side Respectable Nurse is one of us. Only he physically attacks her, and you are capable of defending her, you are morally obligated to do so. "Capable" is doing a lot of work here - bums get in fights all the time, they're plenty quick, and they usually have a weapon. Even your average fit young male is in no condition to fight a bum. If it's two on one (South Side Respectable might not take the initiative, but if you swing she will swing too), and you have a can of mace, you just might have even odds.
I'd try to interpose and steer her away into a separate car, but fighting a bum is a no-win situation that is to be avoided. If the fight cannot be avoided you will probably be seriously injured and face legal consequences, but if it must be done, it must be done.
As to your attraction: South Side Respectable sounds like a much better date than your coworker, to be honest. Your coworker just dunked on you. She doesn't actually care about the homeless guy. You just served her up a risk-free softball that allowed her to pretend to demonstrate that she is more empathetic and intersectional than you, the straight male punching bag of her society.
In reality, if she was in the CTA she would be clinging to the nearest able-bodied straight white male.
Should you see a hobo harassing a wokist, you should remember they're not one of us. You should slink into the background, root for the hobo, and enjoy your kebab.
More options
Context Copy link
It saddens me to know that my younger sister would have had exactly the same reaction as your not-crush.
Had I found myself in your situation, I wouldn't have maced him except in literal self-defence. In my experience in similar situations, it's usually sufficient to interpose yourself between the crazy homeless guy and his target, make yourself look as big and imposing as possible, and loudly tell him to get lost. (Context: I'm a 6-foot broad-shouldered guy. I acknowledge this approach may not have the same effect if you aren't as big as the junkie.) Even the most addled junkie will usually take the hint and leave. I imagine your employer would understand you being a few minutes' late for work, especially if you spin it as you protecting a lone Woman of Colour from the predations of etc.
More options
Context Copy link
This is her first response? I have my doubts she would have the same attitude if she was in the woman on the platform's position.
I despise sanctimony like this. Having a mental illness is not cart blanche to harass, stalk or assault others. She's infantilizing the guy completely and trying to displace the culpability onto 'republicans' of all things. I've seen guy's like that move away instinctively when confronted by an intimidating presence, so her treating him like a force of nature without any agency is pretty disgusting. Bigotry of low expectations and all that.
More options
Context Copy link
If that is a question that you really want to know the answer to then ask a police officer that is stationed in area. They are the ones that enforce the rules/laws so they should be able to give you an idea of how this would play out and may give you some tips on how to do it in a way that would cause the least amount of trouble for you. They probably dislike dealing with the hobos so they might be incentivized to give you useful advice in dealing with the situation. The caveat being that an individual police officer may not speak for the whole department.
I think a more relevant question is:
The answer to that question is probably close to never, unless you are personally in danger and can't deescalate the situation in some other way.
Hobos have a lot less to lose than you. A sad reality, as you are probably aware, is that many times the person who cares the least about the consequences of their actions often has a power advantage in the situation. Gabbling hobos usually fall into at least one of 2 general buckets:
Furthermore, this question has an ethical component:
My personal view on this is something like this: If society encourages/rewards me for helping people, and there is no risk of consequences to me, then I will often be happy to help other people. To a limit of course: I'm not being paid to do it and therefore much of my time needs to be spent pursuing my own economic interests. There are many benefits to society (and therefore me as participant in said society) if people help each other out, and doing good deeds can often be its own reward.
However, in your story so mention your coworker's attitude to this situation was to worry about that "that poor man's mental illness" instead of encouraging you to help the woman. Ideally, society's response to standing up to hobos that are harassing people would be something like this:
If those conditions are not all met then my default response would be that I'm only responsible and obligated to solve problems that personally impact me. If there is a problem in society where those conditions are not met then other people need to change their norms and attitudes to incentivize me to help them.
If society wants to tolerate anti-social behaviors in an attempt to be more compassionate towards people suffering mental health issues then that is fine. Just don't expect people to be good Samaritans when that "tolerance" creates social stigma against intervening in situations where someone with mental health issues is causing problems for others.
I'll find other situations and environments where my help is appreciated and respected.
More options
Context Copy link
To start, if that was my mother/sister/girlfriend/whatever, I probably would've started something with a willingness to use violence if he doesn't back down. Yes, it's a bad idea to try to intimidate/reason with a crazy person. But some things are important, damnit. But I don't think it would be legally justified to mace him, if you were charged for it(and that seems like an if) then "but he was making someone/me uncomfortable" doesn't cut it. You generally need an imminent danger, and I think in Illinois/Chicago you also need to have attempted to get away from him.
Well, the scenario that involved mace I imagined playing out was me getting between them and telling him to go away, then him either getting physical or saying something technically threatening, then me macing him, then using more physical force on the debuffed target if necessary. Which I still wasn't happy with.
That’s probably illegal, although check your location’s self defense laws, but I don’t understand why it would be morally wrong.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I don't have much to say in regards to the story and when you morally/culturally would be allowed to, but make sure you're aware of when you'd be legally allowed to if nothing else. Some places would charge you with something if you use mace against a person even in self-defense.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link