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PaperclipPerfector  11mo ago (text post)   3954 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for November 26, 2023

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

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Why don't Palestinians just convert to Judaism? Most of their ancestors used to be Jews and it would gain them the right to return to Israel, where they could live much better lives. If the answer is that they are devout Muslims and Christians, then do we need to save them from their own irrationality by either somehow getting them to convert anyway or by forcing Israel to give in to their demands so that they don't suffer the consequences of their bad choices?

If this happened at a mass scale, would Israel not allow it? I suppose they would doubt their sincerity and make it more difficult to just convert so that you can move to Israel.

Is this just hard to coordinate on a mass scale? Invidual Palestinians may not want to convert and immigrate and leave their communities. But that still leaves open the question of how bad things must really be if they don't do it anyway. Israel may be an ethno-state, but I think it's the only country in the world that anyone can immigrate to if they're sufficiently motivated to convert to a belief system.

Conversions by Palestinians are generally not accepted as sufficient for Aliyah by Israel.

This is primarily because of the compromise between the Israeli government and diasporic Jewry to allow reform (and other non-orthodox) converts to move to Israel even though the rabbinate doesn’t consider them halakhicly Jewish.

That, in turn, leaves open the door that some progressive Jewish organization might deliberately convert large numbers of Palestinians to Judaism on paper or through some expedited process, and then bulk apply for them to settle in Israel (whereupon they would presumably just join the local Arab Muslim community). For this reason, Palestinian converts are generally denied Aliyah rights.

If the answer is that they are devout Muslims and Christians, then do we need to save them from their own irrationality by either somehow getting them to convert anyway

This is how Christians felt toward Jews for many centuries (forced conversion or expulsion) and it is widely considered to have been a Very Bad Thing. But also, this “irrational” belief is what enables them to exert their will to survive despite reduced quality of life. Can you imagine 21st century Americans behaving like the Palestinians if the Chinese decided to occupy their nation? I can’t. Their “irrational” faith along with its privilege of martyr status and expectation of post-life reward have actually resulted in a evolutionarily rational decision: fighting zero-sum against an arguably ethnic supremacist enemy. Religion has coincidentally allowed them to pursue their evolutionary motive with greater rationality.

Can you imagine 21st century Americans behaving like the Palestinians if the Chinese decided to occupy their nation? I can’t.

If you asked me this question four years ago, I would’ve replied the exact opposite. In elementary school, we were still taught the version of the story of the American Revolution with Paul Revere’s Ride and No Taxation Without Representation and free men casting off the yoke of Albion. I thus always went through life assuming that Americans, even 21st-century ones, were freedom-loving enough to respond violently if necessary to any infringement upon our fundamental rights as outlined in the Constitution and its amendments. Oh boy, was 2020 a wake-up call. I like to believe that those fabled Americans still exist in states redder than mine, but I can’t say that I have the same faith anymore.

Anyway. Sorry for the unrelated blogpost; you just triggered a little thought.

Can you imagine 21st century Americans behaving like the Palestinians if the Chinese decided to occupy their nation? I can’t.

It's an interesting what if. Neither the Americans nor the English have the experience of living under a foreign occupation, at least not since William the Conquerer. I hear this pointed out a lot to explain why American and English perspectives on ex-colonial nations seem so out of touch.

While they were never under a long-term foreign occupation I think the Ulster Scots would be very likely to hold to that type of irrational faith that is necessary for nation to survive under a foreign government. If Ireland ever unifies I don't expect them to stop being more British than the British themselves, and if America ever loses territory I don't expect their counterparts over there to give up either.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-requests-for-conversion-rejected-outright-official-says/

Rabbi Yitzhak Peretz, director of the Israeli government’s Conversion Authority, spoke about his organization’s handling of requests by Palestinians to convert on Tuesday during a discussion on conversions at the State Control Committee of the Knesset, the Israeli parliament, the news site nrg reported.

“The threshold requirements” to be considered by the special cases panel, he said, “are that applicants be sincere and that they are not foreign workers; infiltrators; Palestinian or illegally in the country.”

Most of their ancestors used to be Jews

Were they? My understanding was that modern-day Palestinians traced their ancestry back primarily to ancient Canaanites, not Jews.

Jewish ancestors (the ones they base their claim on Israel on) were Canaanites as well.

Why don't reactionaries and conservatives convert to progressivism? After all progressives control all the institutions and have most of the power, they're the ones winning... Come get your email job organizing diversity and inclusion at Megacorp 39! Give up all your values, friends and family for material luxury and the dubious contempt of those who will still see you as foreign for the rest of your life!

Class and ideology is positively trivial compared to race and language. I'm pretty sure Israelis and Arabs can tell eachother apart readily, even if we can't. Plus Judaism is one of the most ritualistic and complicated religions in the world, it is very unwelcoming to converts.

People don't like changing their national/cultural identity, especially not to become like those they despise and have been in bloody conflict with for many years. It does happen but only over the course of many decades, if not centuries.

Why don't reactionaries and conservatives convert to progressivism?

Well, there is Karlin, although one might doubt his sincerity.

Because 1) they hate jews and 2) Israel is very picky about the conversions to Judaism it accepts, and could easily somehow prevent it by declaring ‘not real Judaism’.

Forced conversions are on the wrong side of a long-standing Schelling fence.

Heavily-encouraged conversions might be on the right side, but have a pretty bad reputation. I personally find them very distasteful, despite being an outright atheist.

What do you think you could do that would convince a Palestinian to renounce his culture, family, and long-established personal beliefs?

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