naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #3
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
So, this might belong in the CWR, but realistically- how much of the heightened red tribe support for Israel is wish fulfillment and how much of it is from other factors(Islamophobia, superstitious fear of opposing Israel, dislike of the people siding with Palestinians, lack of concern over settler colonialism and a general principle granting states the right of self defense, genuine pro-democracy sentiment, etc).
Let's get the elephant in the living room out of the way first- at least some portion of evangelicals really do believe we have a duty to support Israel(the state) out of something something biblical end times prophecy. Red tribers in general are likely to see actual-religious evangelicals as moral exemplars even if they don't intend on waking up that early on Sundays, but IME the way that filters down, even to the ones that go to church, is usually more "God will punish us for not intervening if Israel falls" and less actual love of Israel. This tends to be compounded by Israel's winning record; if you're looking for confirmation that there's some kind of curse inherent in opposing the state of Israel, well...
Islamophobia is probably also a factor. Yes, Christians in the region are usually not pro-Israel partisans, but the vast majority of Israel's active opponents are Muslim, and the Palestinian authority doesn't treat Christians very well(certainly not as well as Israel does). Also lots of them don't know about the opinions of middle eastern Christians, or that these are longstanding groups of locals as opposed to one or two converts from American or British missionaries.
But all that being said, the red tribe just doesn't understand why settler colonialism is supposed to be so evil, most of them don't know what a nakba is and see it as "Jews bought the land from its rightful owners, fair and square. Then the Muslims didn't like that, started a civil war, they lost and got kicked out." which is not a story that makes the red tribe think of Israel as illegitimate, and from the perspective of "Israel is legitimately established", there might have been some excesses but self defense describes most of what it did and has done. There is a difference between "we support them because they're morally justified" and "we support them because we wish we could do what they do".
Plus, Israel is a US ally. They certainly put their own interests first, but that's to be expected. Israel certainly keeps a lid on, say, Syrian and Iranian influence in a way that's very convenient for the GAE and probably worth the USS Liberty.
I will note that at least two dozen people in my life have gotten in touch with me to let me know that I need to get right with God because this conflict in Israel is a direct sign of the end times. I'm never sure how to feel about that, prophecy and free will being complicated concepts to square together. What's the value of supporting Israel if the net outcome is already preordained?
So based off my own unscientific sample, it seems that evangelicals think things go a little deeper than that.
It seems like most Israel supporters have told me that Israel falling would mean bad times for the countries that opposed it, but the reasons varied from ‘bring about the end times directly’ to ‘divine punishment’.
A number of Evangelicals consider Genesis 12:3 to be significant guidance on the issue. Option A = blessed by God. Option B = cursed by God. Make your own choices as you see fit, but do consider the remarkable lack of subtlety in the options presented.
Reality may certainly be described by a variety of interpretations, but I think most would agree that many Palestinians do not like Israel very much, and frequently act on that opinion. Also, Gaza seems like a poor place to live, given most alternatives. Genesis 12:3 is one way of connecting those observations.
other factors(Islamophobia, superstitious fear of opposing Israel, dislike of the people siding with Palestinians, lack of concern over settler colonialism and a general principle granting states the right of self defense, genuine pro-democracy sentiment, etc).
Boy, this summary sure makes me think that you've given a particularly charitable analysis of motivations. Let's go get a big drink of water and:
Red tribers in general are likely to see actual-religious evangelicals as moral exemplars even if they don't intend on waking up that early on Sundays, but IME the way that filters down, even to the ones that go to church, is usually more "God will punish us for not intervening if Israel falls" and less actual love of Israel.
most of them don't know what a nakba
Would you actually find it useful to see a steelman, or is that not really the point, here?
how much of the heightened red tribe support for Israel
Is there heightened red tribe support? If anything it seems a little less with Tucker pulling some to America First. As you note evangelicals have been very pro Israel for decades.
Also, not to put too fine a point on it: Israel is huhWight.
Even if most Israelis aren't white racially, it is a white post colonial European state culturally. Ingroup loyalty puts it's finger on the balance, so if you aren't sure what's going on/ don't care that much, the default position is to support team most-like-you.
's why absent any knowledge about the region, most Americans and Europeans feel better about Singapore than eg New Guinee: Even if Singapore isn't western, it's close enough for horseshoes and international diplomacy.
I think there's a lot of weight in just the fact that most internationally-visible Israelis (officials, reporters, etc) are fluent English speakers and often give press conferences in (pretty good) English. I expect the trifecta of "fluent in English", "white-appearing" and "culturally western/European-coded" is enough on its own to make the average American red-triber (maybe the average American in general?) start off somewhat sympathetic to you.
Incidentally, I learned just now (while double-checking my kneejerk "it seems like most Israelis speak decent English" assumption) that 20% of Israelis are fluent in Russian, and Russian is by a good margin the most popular non-official language spoken in Israel, not English. (Arabic and Hebrew are official.) Apparently that's entirely because of Jewish exodus from the USSR from the 1970s to the late 90s. Not being familiar with that demographic history, I don't even think I would've expected Russian to be in the top 10.
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Notes -
So, this might belong in the CWR, but realistically- how much of the heightened red tribe support for Israel is wish fulfillment and how much of it is from other factors(Islamophobia, superstitious fear of opposing Israel, dislike of the people siding with Palestinians, lack of concern over settler colonialism and a general principle granting states the right of self defense, genuine pro-democracy sentiment, etc).
Let's get the elephant in the living room out of the way first- at least some portion of evangelicals really do believe we have a duty to support Israel(the state) out of something something biblical end times prophecy. Red tribers in general are likely to see actual-religious evangelicals as moral exemplars even if they don't intend on waking up that early on Sundays, but IME the way that filters down, even to the ones that go to church, is usually more "God will punish us for not intervening if Israel falls" and less actual love of Israel. This tends to be compounded by Israel's winning record; if you're looking for confirmation that there's some kind of curse inherent in opposing the state of Israel, well...
Islamophobia is probably also a factor. Yes, Christians in the region are usually not pro-Israel partisans, but the vast majority of Israel's active opponents are Muslim, and the Palestinian authority doesn't treat Christians very well(certainly not as well as Israel does). Also lots of them don't know about the opinions of middle eastern Christians, or that these are longstanding groups of locals as opposed to one or two converts from American or British missionaries.
But all that being said, the red tribe just doesn't understand why settler colonialism is supposed to be so evil, most of them don't know what a nakba is and see it as "Jews bought the land from its rightful owners, fair and square. Then the Muslims didn't like that, started a civil war, they lost and got kicked out." which is not a story that makes the red tribe think of Israel as illegitimate, and from the perspective of "Israel is legitimately established", there might have been some excesses but self defense describes most of what it did and has done. There is a difference between "we support them because they're morally justified" and "we support them because we wish we could do what they do".
Plus, Israel is a US ally. They certainly put their own interests first, but that's to be expected. Israel certainly keeps a lid on, say, Syrian and Iranian influence in a way that's very convenient for the GAE and probably worth the USS Liberty.
I will note that at least two dozen people in my life have gotten in touch with me to let me know that I need to get right with God because this conflict in Israel is a direct sign of the end times. I'm never sure how to feel about that, prophecy and free will being complicated concepts to square together. What's the value of supporting Israel if the net outcome is already preordained?
So based off my own unscientific sample, it seems that evangelicals think things go a little deeper than that.
Of course, as a Catholic, I know not to get worked up until Russia comes to the true Church
It seems like most Israel supporters have told me that Israel falling would mean bad times for the countries that opposed it, but the reasons varied from ‘bring about the end times directly’ to ‘divine punishment’.
A number of Evangelicals consider Genesis 12:3 to be significant guidance on the issue. Option A = blessed by God. Option B = cursed by God. Make your own choices as you see fit, but do consider the remarkable lack of subtlety in the options presented.
Reality may certainly be described by a variety of interpretations, but I think most would agree that many Palestinians do not like Israel very much, and frequently act on that opinion. Also, Gaza seems like a poor place to live, given most alternatives. Genesis 12:3 is one way of connecting those observations.
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That's like saying that Cordyceps is the ant's ally.
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Boy, this summary sure makes me think that you've given a particularly charitable analysis of motivations. Let's go get a big drink of water and:
Would you actually find it useful to see a steelman, or is that not really the point, here?
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Is there heightened red tribe support? If anything it seems a little less with Tucker pulling some to America First. As you note evangelicals have been very pro Israel for decades.
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Also, not to put too fine a point on it: Israel is huhWight.
Even if most Israelis aren't white racially, it is a white post colonial European state culturally. Ingroup loyalty puts it's finger on the balance, so if you aren't sure what's going on/ don't care that much, the default position is to support team most-like-you.
's why absent any knowledge about the region, most Americans and Europeans feel better about Singapore than eg New Guinee: Even if Singapore isn't western, it's close enough for horseshoes and international diplomacy.
I think there's a lot of weight in just the fact that most internationally-visible Israelis (officials, reporters, etc) are fluent English speakers and often give press conferences in (pretty good) English. I expect the trifecta of "fluent in English", "white-appearing" and "culturally western/European-coded" is enough on its own to make the average American red-triber (maybe the average American in general?) start off somewhat sympathetic to you.
Incidentally, I learned just now (while double-checking my kneejerk "it seems like most Israelis speak decent English" assumption) that 20% of Israelis are fluent in Russian, and Russian is by a good margin the most popular non-official language spoken in Israel, not English. (Arabic and Hebrew are official.) Apparently that's entirely because of Jewish exodus from the USSR from the 1970s to the late 90s. Not being familiar with that demographic history, I don't even think I would've expected Russian to be in the top 10.
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