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You're overstating this I think (I say this as a white man married to a BWD leaning black woman), it's still a minority position and "dating out" is still very much not the norm. So saying they don't like or trust each other at all is going way too far.
What is true is that there are fractures caused by (perceived?) double standards of black men dating white women being unhappy black women date white men, and of "dusty" black men who cheat/abandon their families, which is the core of the BWD complaints. And fractures the other way about black men who feel black women date white men for money or for racial reasons ("Black men keep telling me white men are keeping them down and making excuses, if so then why should I date the servant and not the master?")
I'm pretty much the only white guy at most family functions and most of the other guests are still dating/married within their race, so don't generalize too far I think. Having said that, some of my wifes friends have apparently changed their dating preferences to include white men after seeing the success of our relationship after initially having a lot of doubts about interracial dating so there is that.
I'm fairly sure black women generally score the lowest for interracial appeal in dating app data, which might be part of it.
Then again there's generally strong correlations between being a black woman and a bunch of things the dating market isn't a fan of such as Obesity, dependents etc. which might mean that the antipathy towards Black Women is overstated on account of the correlated factors.
Like I found in my personal dating I tended to end up pursuing more Asian girls than anything else, but that was more due to a preference for 'My partner ideally has graduated university, isn't overweight, hasn't got somebody else's kids etcetera' than necessary a strong preference in isolation.
I agree with everything you just said. But I also wonder, is there a genetic hotness/beauty component to the trend as well? I will admit that when I was in college, I actually kind of thought that there was not such a thing as an attractive black woman (or rather that they were exceedingly rare, like only Halle Berry and other movie stars). I since have come to know black women in everyday life that I think are legit attractive. But I do wonder where my previous belief came from and if there's any truth to it. Is it nature, nurture, or was I just completely wrong in my belief? Does the black female face structure more commonly have more masculine components to it? That's what I used to think. Or is it obesity like you say, or ghetto dress culture of wearing baggy ugly clothes, or even is it that our culture really just doesn't prefer African American features like frizzy hair?
Also, I think that another trend for low dating appeal is personality, as well. This is easier to believe as just being "nurture". You'll hear this from black men all the time, about how black women are unpleasant to be around for being nagging, abusive, and even violent. The causes for this could be many things, from just confirmation bias, to black women being bitchy because they've been told by intersectional progressives that they have the shortest end of the stick, to maybe even them actually having the shortest end of the stick, and getting a raw deal, stuck with the unwanted kids, etc.
Responding to @Forgotpassword as well here.
Speaking as a white gay man so your milage may vary. But as a gay top I am attracted to Asian and Latino men who are a bit smaller than me. It's difficult to top men who I perceive as bigger or stronger or more violent/aggressive than me so it's more difficult to top black or Middle Eastern men even though I often find them attractive in an abstract way. Even when I do "top" a man taller and hotter than me it leaves me feeling weird because I don't feel superior to him in any way so it feels like it shouldn't have happened. I suspect that straight men who are not black might find black women harder to "top" (excuse the weird gay metaphor applied to heterosexual intercourse) compared to white or Asian women. You have to be able to believe that you have a right to screw the person you're screwing and it's easier to believe it when you have a physical advantage over that person physically.
I don't know if it's necessarily "masculinity" that black women have more of but it's possibly some combination of aggression and strength and dominance that is off putting psychologically in a sexual context. Black men look stronger and more dominant so trying to top them as a white man is difficult and weird, compared with other more docile looking guys. I imagine it's the same with women, broadly speaking.
Interesting post, thank you for it -- but this part is where I'm pretty sure you went off the rails.
You're welcome, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'm not sure if you are interpreting the sentence you quoted as meaning that I am applying the same ideas to the psychology that women have when they have sex with men, which is not what I was implying. I meant that I imagine that for men who are attracted to women, that those men also have to be able to see themselves as more dominant and masculine over the women they are having sex with, and that it is easier for, say, a blond white man to imagine himself dominating an Asian woman compared with dominating a black woman.
On another tangent, I believe men who are interested in being dominated by women are sublimating their domination instinct and directing their sexual anxieties toward the female to cover their insecurity and fear of not being able to perform. Exploring this dynamic in sex might be titillating and sexually gratifying for the man but I can't imagine it boosts or stabilizes his ego in the long term, it is a rather masturbatory practice and doesn't result in self security. Similarly a gay man who only bottoms or performs submissive roles in sex is probably unlikely to experience full gratification from sex.
No, this is what I thought you meant -- you imagine wrong, it's not like that at all.
When you imagine having sexual intercourse with a woman who do you want to have sex with? Someone who is aggressive and dominant or someone who is submissive and docile? I prefer the latter for men, the former keeps me from being comfortable enough to imagine performing with them. When bottoms are too active it is a turnoff, do you not feel the same way toward women? Of course I need to believe my partner is attracted to me, so I'm not seeking disinterest entirely, but a partner who is doing less makes it easier to perform versus a partner who is trying too hard to perform their role. You need confidence in yourself and your partner to make love and it's easier to have confidence with a smaller weaker partner than with a stronger one. If straight men don't feel this way then muscular strong women would be more popular as sexual prospects but they're really not. Similarly I don't want to have sex with men who are too strong for me because it makes me feel weak.
Either is fine IRL -- if I'm imagining then it varies, but extremely submissive and docile would be kind of a turn-off now that you mention it.
No not at all, activity is definitely a plus -- unless one of the partners has some relevant kink I wouldn't normally even frame it in terms of dominance/submission though. I don't think I've ever had a long-term partner with whom the more active person doesn't vary from time to time. I have heard that this is not usually the case for gay men, but while I'm not a mega-slut I'm pretty sure I would have seen something like it at least once if it were generally similar in the hetero world -- do you have any reason to think so other than 'hetero people are probably similar to gay men(!?)'?
The framework you are seeking is just not that much of a thing hetero relationships -- possibly because even a muscular strong woman is in fact easily physically overpowered by most men. A (relatively) strong tall women who takes control of things can be super-hot -- as can a woman who would rather be 'overpowered' or 'used' in some sense.
No offense but for me if anybody is 'performing a role' (outside of literal roleplaying) something has gone very wrong.
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I think what this comes down to is that the AA community has a shortage of both eligible men and desirable women, for a variety of reasons, and the coping strategies for that often make sense in the short term but tend to screw over the individual blacks engaging in them over the longer term, and that addressing the underlying problems just gets them defected on, and this drives resentment between the sexes.
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thanks for sharing.
Do you think this is a class thing? i.e. the BW that go to college and get white collar jobs vs BW who never leave their community? I assume BM date outside their race at higher % for higher income etc as well.
Now that I write it out, I think probably most people in all races have some positive correlation between higher income and higher multicultural rates in today’s america
My guess is it is bimodal. Low class and PMC.
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Opportunity and familiarity are big parts of it I think,so i would expect socio-economic status to correlate. My wife is a lawyer, but her mum still lives in the house she has for 50 odd years, which is now smack dab in the middle of Section 8 housing ghetto as she describes it. When I am there, I am one of only a handful of white people on the block. So anyone living and working there is unlikely to run into many white guys.
On a separate note, i have never felt particularly at risk there, even though there have been shootings on the block. The victims are almost invariably black men/teens involved in gangs/drugs or drill rap feuds. Now I did grow up in the Troubles in Northern Ireland and have been in a few brawls so my risk tolerance may also be higher.
Interesting, reminds me of the show Insecure, where in a story arc the second-main character (bestfriend of main character, BW, also a lawyer herself) visits her parents and discovers they cannot retire, or something like that. But then other BW friend (accountant) helps them out.
I wonder how many Northern Irish guys marry American black women. And then how many of them visit TheMotte. You are a unicorn I imagine haha
Jamaican x Irish is common in my neighbourhood of south-east London - 3 kids in my older son's primary school class. It also provides evidence that you can indeed have a black redhead - at least on the American definition where any mixed-race person with visible black in the mix counts as "Black".
So probably not a unicorn. If Ginnie Thomas has Irish ancestry (likely as she is PMC and Catholic, and Thomas isn't an Italian name) then Clarence and Ginnie Thomas are probably the most famous example of African-American x Irish.
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You might not believe this, but he's not.
There are literal two's of us!
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Naaaaniii???!!!??/
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