naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
I'm not sure if anyone shared this last week. Ryan Murphy (youtuber that discusses military things) broke down/translated some military orders found on a Hamas soldier showing the extent of the planning of the attack. I watched it on his substack because he said the youtube version was edited for monetization. https://ryanmcbeth.substack.com/p/inside-the-hamas-operations-order This is for a group that attacked one of the kibbutzim. The most interesting stuff to me was that they carried no water, med kits, and the plan is missing the parts of the operation manual that usually detail medical evacuation procedures (saying this was unsurprisingly considered to be a one way trip, hostage takers returning to gaza aside). I was also surprised at the detail they had on the directions and timings of possible defense forces to arrive. He also has some shorts where he looks at a couple of propaganda videos and says why he thinks they are fake.
Palestine wonks I know say that kinkos printouts of orders are very unusual; that hamas usually has more informal and deniable chains of command in these situations eg, never never never commit anything to ink or bits that might make them look bad if it comes out. They might have messages saying "Break through at such and such" and then a dude would drop by tell you face to face the level of war crimes they expect out of you.
Native speakers I know say that could either be a machine translated text of some language with weird clauses (not english); or it could just be written awkwardly as all such documents are.
Or it could be hot off the laser printer of some IDF infowars guy -- it seems very important at the moment that everybody be fully aware that the raid was of such barbaric and deliberate savagery that absolutely any response one can imagine is fully justified. What better way to accomplish this than committing it to (suspiciously tidy and free of blood sweat and/or tears) paper?
saying this was unsurprisingly considered to be a one way trip
I've been watching news and analysis videos about this latest flare up with morbid curiosity, and one commentary that struck me as notable and surprisingly surprising to me (in retrospect, it shouldn't have been surprising to me, especially since it was told to me multiple times before in different contexts, but it was still surprising) was just how different people's relationships with religion, life, death, and the afterlife is in the middle east compared to in the liberal West where I've lived. Just how unimportant these people consider their current temporary time on Earth compared to the infinite afterlife they expect after they die is not something I find easy to wrap my head around, and it's not something I encounter often enough to be able to intuitively grasp it. It makes it hard to properly empathize with the actors involved or to model their behaviors, but it also makes some of their actions comprehensible in a way that purely economic or political considerations don't.
This is all explicit in the Koran, as is the establishment of the Jews as vile prophet killers. Much of the behavior of Islamists makes much more sense if you've read the Koran. Its a relatively short book too; you can read the entire thing in a day if you make time for it. I recommend this translation: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09Y68H3SB over others. I've found translations by believers to be especially lower value as their interpretation presumes the book to be complete, perfect, and literally 100% correct and consistent, which is quite obviously isn't. Its a remarkably hostile text for a major holy book and repeatedly singles out Jews as especially vile. I'd estimate about 7 hours to get through it.
Seriously no other major holy text spends so much time denigrating other religions, its really remarkable.
Walterodim
Only equals speak the truth, that’s my thought on’t
07mk 1yr ago
This is why I keep coming back to how poor the explanation that "people are desperate" is for suicide bombings and other effectively suicidal attacks are in the West. Believing that narrative requires ignoring that people who are factually doing fine financially, living in nice countries with plenty of opportunity, still engage in this behavior, tell us exactly why they're doing it, and everything about their internal narrative is consistent. When a guy says, "I am going to the enemies of Allah because their existence is an affront, my actions will send me to Paradise", I really don't have to get a copy of his tax filings to figure out his actions.
More to the point, terroristic unrest among nominally Christian populations very very rarely uses suicide bombings- the IRA killed people, but mostly using bombs with timers, and it seems like the communist groups in Western Europe did the same thing.
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Notes -
I'm not sure if anyone shared this last week. Ryan Murphy (youtuber that discusses military things) broke down/translated some military orders found on a Hamas soldier showing the extent of the planning of the attack. I watched it on his substack because he said the youtube version was edited for monetization. https://ryanmcbeth.substack.com/p/inside-the-hamas-operations-order This is for a group that attacked one of the kibbutzim. The most interesting stuff to me was that they carried no water, med kits, and the plan is missing the parts of the operation manual that usually detail medical evacuation procedures (saying this was unsurprisingly considered to be a one way trip, hostage takers returning to gaza aside). I was also surprised at the detail they had on the directions and timings of possible defense forces to arrive. He also has some shorts where he looks at a couple of propaganda videos and says why he thinks they are fake.
Palestine wonks I know say that kinkos printouts of orders are very unusual; that hamas usually has more informal and deniable chains of command in these situations eg, never never never commit anything to ink or bits that might make them look bad if it comes out. They might have messages saying "Break through at such and such" and then a dude would drop by tell you face to face the level of war crimes they expect out of you.
Native speakers I know say that could either be a machine translated text of some language with weird clauses (not english); or it could just be written awkwardly as all such documents are.
Or it could be hot off the laser printer of some IDF infowars guy -- it seems very important at the moment that everybody be fully aware that the raid was of such barbaric and deliberate savagery that absolutely any response one can imagine is fully justified. What better way to accomplish this than committing it to (suspiciously tidy and free of blood sweat and/or tears) paper?
I was trying to kinda circle the point there but yes lol.
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I've been watching news and analysis videos about this latest flare up with morbid curiosity, and one commentary that struck me as notable and surprisingly surprising to me (in retrospect, it shouldn't have been surprising to me, especially since it was told to me multiple times before in different contexts, but it was still surprising) was just how different people's relationships with religion, life, death, and the afterlife is in the middle east compared to in the liberal West where I've lived. Just how unimportant these people consider their current temporary time on Earth compared to the infinite afterlife they expect after they die is not something I find easy to wrap my head around, and it's not something I encounter often enough to be able to intuitively grasp it. It makes it hard to properly empathize with the actors involved or to model their behaviors, but it also makes some of their actions comprehensible in a way that purely economic or political considerations don't.
This is all explicit in the Koran, as is the establishment of the Jews as vile prophet killers. Much of the behavior of Islamists makes much more sense if you've read the Koran. Its a relatively short book too; you can read the entire thing in a day if you make time for it. I recommend this translation: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09Y68H3SB over others. I've found translations by believers to be especially lower value as their interpretation presumes the book to be complete, perfect, and literally 100% correct and consistent, which is quite obviously isn't. Its a remarkably hostile text for a major holy book and repeatedly singles out Jews as especially vile. I'd estimate about 7 hours to get through it.
Seriously no other major holy text spends so much time denigrating other religions, its really remarkable.
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This is why I keep coming back to how poor the explanation that "people are desperate" is for suicide bombings and other effectively suicidal attacks are in the West. Believing that narrative requires ignoring that people who are factually doing fine financially, living in nice countries with plenty of opportunity, still engage in this behavior, tell us exactly why they're doing it, and everything about their internal narrative is consistent. When a guy says, "I am going to the enemies of Allah because their existence is an affront, my actions will send me to Paradise", I really don't have to get a copy of his tax filings to figure out his actions.
More to the point, terroristic unrest among nominally Christian populations very very rarely uses suicide bombings- the IRA killed people, but mostly using bombs with timers, and it seems like the communist groups in Western Europe did the same thing.
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