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I do not think the claim that "we" share principles is a supportable assumption, whether referring to you and me or the community generally. What the community shares is a standard of decorum.
What level of evidence would you require to consider removing the "perceived" from that phrase? If you're left-wing or Blue Tribe or a moderate or whatever, I'm happy to talk with you politely, but I'm pretty sure you're my enemy, and not in a loosey-goosey metaphorical sense. I'd give it better than 70% odds that you or a close friend or family member would experience net-positive qualia if they heard about me being fired from my job, imprisoned, seriously injured or killed due to a politically-colored incident.
This is not a claim that you or your friends or family are in any way unusual; the above applies to me, and without the caveat of friends and family. I observe that a lot of Americans legitimately hate each other across the red/blue divide with great fervor and zeal. I have consumed memes about bad things happening to Blues in politically-charged incidents, and experienced positive qualia. I think it's fairly obvious that most politically-aware people on both sides have. That is not a good thing, but it is a thing, it is not hard to find, and pretending it isn't real doesn't make it go away.
The post I was replying to was putting forward the idea that Hanania is providing a viable path forward for, broadly speaking, "the Right". They listed off the other, obviously-non-viable alternatives. I listed the alternative they left off the list, which happens to be the most viable, easiest to execute given the givens, and probably one of the least destructive. Every tactic I listed has been a standard part of the political environment for decades. No violence is required. To the extent that laws can be said to exist in a meaningful sense, there's no need to break them. All that is needed is to recognize that our values are not, in fact, reconcilable, and that we are all better off if we stop pretending otherwise. It is better to divorce and then leave each other alone if we can, than to continue the endlessly-escalating fight for dominance.
I don't think this is true. You are free to disagree if you like, and I will do my best to be polite and respectful in return.
You are free to argue for the explicit demolition of conservative power structures, and people have. You are free to argue for Communist revolution if you like. During the riots, people argued that rioting was a good thing and that burning police stations was awesome. I'm religious; someone elsewhere in this week's thread has argued that religion should be considered a mental illness. He's allowed to do that.
That's because you are not thinking about them as people at that point but faceless statistics, I would wager. If you sub in some Blue person that you actually know and care about, a friend, relative, an in law. Do you still feel the same way? I heavily suspect from what I know of you, that you would not.
Being happy something bad happened to a faceless member of the outgroup is as easy as it is meaningless. The question is do you hate the individual Blues that you know just because they are Blues?
Because that is what would be required for the breakdown of society in the way you talk about. Not that you are vaguely happy some random pink haired trans activist is hit by a truck with a MAGA bumper sticker while they tried to block the road, or that your Blue equivalent is vaguely happy some redneck in a cowboy hat gets beaten with a chair by a black paddleboat crew. That is entirely normal! We like it when bad things happen to the faceless other side, because they are wrong and bad, otherwise they would be on our side. That is an entirely normal human feeling. Our societies have had to deal with that since we started living together in groups bigger than 5.
But if it was your Blue brother in law, who you talk sports with at family weddings and who treats your sister well, who was hit by the truck, are you still happy? If so, then yes you are probably over the edge in partisan hate (in my opinion). But from how you write, I don't think that applies to you, and from my interactions with both Blue and Red Americans (given I am not American but live here), I don't think that is true of the vast, vast majority of them either.
I live in a Red town, but I work in the city in academia. When I have a bbq and my worlds collide, people are perfectly ok with each other. The local hardware store employee does not end up in a death match with the university HR rep. They eat hot dogs together while complaining about how people who prefer ketchup to mustard are evil (real example!).
In my direct experience most Americans do NOT hate each other across the blue/red divide. Because they barely know each other and true hate requires knowledge. They may dislike the opposing tribe, but that is not the same thing, and confusing the two is a mistake.
That or as an Emmanuel Goldstein, if they're particularly odious. Think people's attitude toward Shkreli a few years back.
Of course not. But kind feelings fostered by intimate familiarity are no protection at all against the strong arm of the government, or of the mob.
On the contrary, kind feelings however they are fostered are a strong protection. Not necessarily at the individual level of course.
One of the reasons the IRA was forced to cone to the table was that their own people had begun to support them less due to a couple of bombing campaigns that killed children and OAPs. These victims were still of the outgroup, but their was outrage even with Catholic communities. How people felt about the victims killed in their name was crucial in the ceasefire.
Before that the British dialed back on internment and brutal tactics to suppress Catholics after British citizens condemned things like Bloody Sunday and several shootings where teenagers ended up dead. The government responds to public pressure.
In the US, it was seeing black people brutalized by the police and having dogs set on them while peacefully marching that triggered enough support, that finally tried to remove layers of legal discrimination.
Seeing your opponents as people, as lives lost and ruined is a key factor in keeping, and returning to peace, and even when those differences have been built on hundreds of years of hatred and violence, it can still be done. We can still see dead Protestants or dead Catholics as abhorrent even after all of that.
Red's and Blue's are no different in my experience. Most Americans whatever their affiliations do not want to see their opponents murdered. Your levels of division are increasing, but you're not even at the levels the US was in the 60's and 70's let alone where Northern Ireland was in the 60's and 70's. Tensions wax and wane over time. Your fatalism is I believe misplaced.
Back home we would say that everything is bigger in America. I recently attended a wedding in Texas, and the saying that everything in Texas is bigger, apparently makes Texas, the America of America. But the people I met in rural Texas were not particularly different than the people I meet in Pennsylvania (though the church was huge as was the liquor store!) A union of a Philly city boy and a Texas rural girl, and the union of their families. Even North to South, rural to urban, the divisions in America at the personal level, simply do not look that great especially compared to history.
And it is, make no mistake at the personal level that will drive or heal the divisions you do have. Mobs and governments can be dumb and violent and can do terrible things, no doubt. But if the next day the public looks at bodies on the street and is repulsed, then there is a cap. Even at the height of the BLM riots, very few people actually died compared to the numbers involved (though there were some). Even in mobs and with mobs facing armed police, largely widespread death was not the result. Even for those who believed an election was stolen, and were there when the decision was being made ended up with very little death and destruction. Everything may be bigger in America, except when it comes to mob and government violence it appears.
I am not American, but I think you will get through this as your great nation has got through so many other (in my view) worse positions.
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Yes it is all about decorum, that is in fact my point. I have seen many people criticize conservatives, but none that I have seen have done so with decorum youve shown-- the finality of the tone and extreme positions advocated for, (at least originally) without explicit argument, while at the same time telegraphing your intent to defect from your enemies...
You say this could be tolerated from the left, but I really don't believe it. I would welcome some examples from you if you think otherwise.
Well, I've kind of been doing this for a while.
Have you read Scott's Conflict vs Mistake theory, or Sort by Controversial? I see in another comment that you've read Conservatives as moral mutants, but have you read Zunger's Tolerance is not a moral precept.
In Conflict vs Mistake, Scott lays out two basic ways that people can frame disagreement, either as a mistake to be corrected so cooperation can be restored, or as a conflict where cooperation is impossible. The thing to note from that one is that from a materialist, rationalist perspective, the two are asymmetric; if one side thinks it's a conflict, and you can't convince them they're wrong, you are in a conflict whether you think they're making a mistake or not.
Conservatives as Moral Mutants might require some background to appreciate the full effect; the author is (or was at the time of writing, I haven't followed their writing in years) an eminently reasonable, charitable, thoughtful person. The takeaway is that values, at the end of the day, are by definition the only things that matter to any of us, and not all values are compatible.
Tolerance Is Not a Moral Precept addresses the question of what we do when we are confronted by incompatible values. He points out that tolerance has never been more than a least-worst alternative to what we all want, which is for things to be Right. We accept that we can't have things perfectly right because we can't all agree on what "Right" is, so we tolerate some deviation to keep the peace. But deviation that can be suppressed without compromising the peace always has been and always will be suppressed. If it can't be suppressed, the alternatives are separation or war. In my opinion, it's one of the best essays I've ever read.
Sort By Controversial is the chaser, compressing into a short-story something of the actual feeling of long-term exposure to the culture war.
If you've read them, I'd be interested to know what you think of them.
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I gotta agree here @FCfromSSC I like your style and think you're a good writer. You've actually helped convince me to flip more conservative myself since I've been reading the site.
That being said, even I get pretty turned off by your no-holds-barred never changing your mind position. You can believe that sort of thing, but at least keep the fig leaf that you're not actively waging the culture war. If only to slow the descent of this site into a right-wing echo chamber.
The term you're looking for is fatalism.
I am inclined to argue, but there's little point and it's a fair cop.
[EDIT] - It's tough, you know?
Speak plainly, and it's waging the culture war.
Speak obliquely, and it's darkly hinting.
Don't speak at all, and endure the misery of people asking questions with obvious answers.
Probably I should just make more spaceships.
It would be nice if you guys who believe so strongly in common values and the strength of institutions would actually bring some evidence at some point, though.
So you are trolling on the Motte when you could be making spaceships...
You are Elon Musk and I claim my 3 months' free Twitter Blue subscription.
Also get off social media and go back to making spaceships, for all of our sakes.
Sadly, no... just an guy who likes making spaceships...
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Eh honestly I don't know if it's an instrumental reason I can clearly articulate. I certainly don't have strong faith in our institutions. More that I just feel it's wrong to call for violence and to not see the potential for good in humanity.
Honestly I prefer your darkly hinting, I think you're quite good at it. I can sympathize with you though, it is difficult to figure out where to draw the line.
Hold on... where was he calling for violence? And for that matter, where is he not seeing the potential good in humanity?
IMO any 'accelerationist' position is ultimately calling for violence.
I don't think that's fair. If I believe transhumanism will ultimately result in the genocide of the human race at the hands of the cyborgs, is it ok if I equate advocating for transhumanism with calls for violence?
No, but then again most transhumanists don't nakedly call for violence. The framework of accerlerationism I am familiar with pretty blatantly calls for civil war, and increasing the time frame of that happening.
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Take the spaceship pill and make me happy.
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Is he actually exhibiting a "no-holds-barred never changing your mind position"? My impression is that what you, and others, are taking an issue with is the "some institutions are hostile, and need to be treated as such" position. That he's supposed to act like these institutions don't have the explicit goal of spreading values hostile to his, even when he can give a direct link to them saying this is what they are doing. While I can understand someone disagreeing with his views on these institutions (and debate on their nature would be very interesting to see), I don't see why the expression of these views should be beyond the pale.
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Here's one that happened relatively recently. Back on reddit we discussed this essay, and not only was it not banned to argue in favor of it, a person that jokingly said "Quick, get her kids before she gets yours!" was moderated. Otherwise he brought up a few specific examples like BLM riots being defended. If it's links you want, that demand is unfair given that reddit search sites have been crippled, and you don't feel obligated to provide any to make your point.
I disagree about the "without explicit argument", his post is the explicit argument in the context of the conversation. Otherwise, none of that is against the rules as far as I can tell.
Yes that heavily downvoted post... great example! The community obviously thought it was below some standard on some level, and I would tend to agree. We will see where FC's post will stand in 24 hours.
Given how conservatives still seethe about the moral mutant post, it seems to me an obvious net negative in its impact on the discourse. In fact, I think I recall FC, or some other, citing that post as a justification for their tone. Well obviously defection begets defection. I think the ideas in that essay could have been presented another way, and should have, but the OP chose the way of brash, arrogant condescension. And we see the fallout from that.
I'm sorry, what definition of "tolerate" are you using?
No. They disagreed, and clicked the "I disagree" button.
Now this would be a violation of this community's decorum.
This is weird. If you think the substance of the post is fine, it's just the way it's presented that has issues, I have no idea what is the issue with FC's comment. He was nowhere near as condescending as Ozy, and the substance is pretty much the same, the big exception being that FC does not want to indoctrinate blue tribe kids, just shield the red ones from blue indoctrination.
On reddit, the mantra was that the downvote was not an "I disagree" button. If that's not the case at the motte I sure would like to know that.
How so? To seethe means to get angry or become highly agitated. It seems to me factual that many conservatives did angry over the post. And I don't blame them really. It is no less factual or inflammatory than FCs follow up claim that 70% of blue tribers hate his kind and vice versa.
I am baffled by what you consider acceptable decorum. Do you believe Ozys essay meets the decorum standards of this community? Yet my use of seethe does not.
Full disclosure, I think both the substance and the tone in Ozys essay are both quite bad. If there is any kernel or value to be had in discussing it, then the discussion should proceed in a tone that inversely proportional to how inflammatory the subject is. This is a basic principle I think that allows highly charged topics to be discussed productively. I don't think Ozys or FC's posts meet that standard.
Despite the mantra, the downvote button is pretty universally used as a disagree button on Reddit: I think the main reason the mantra exists is as a push against the clear regular use.
It's a good question to ask what the intended use here is. I vaguely recall a discussion where it was useful to have a button to push as a way to let off steam in response to a post that you dislike: instead of writing an angry retort that drives down the quality of the discussion, you just push your dislike button and move on to a conversation you can productively engage with. I don't know if mods were involved in that discussion or what their thoughts on that philosophy were.
Certainly with our aggressive modding of tone and the community moderation effort, there's a question of whether downvotes meaningfully imply "this shouldn't be on here": that's what the report button and janitor duty are for, and downvotes seem rather redundant with that.
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You can chant the mantra all you want, you're not going to stop people from using it as an "I disagree" button, and if that's how they're using it, that's what it is.
For the same reason calling someone's ideas "retarded" would be a violation of the decorum, but calling them "immature" would not, even though they mean the same thing.
It would need some edits ("moral mutants" is past the line, I think), but the substance is fine.
Well, I agree to an extent, and both of the posts we're discussing have their strengths and weaknesses re: productive discussion. Ozy's is better in the she elaborates on her views, explains where they come from, and why they are irreconcilable with conservative ones, the issue is mostly her tone. By contrast FC's tone is perfectly fine as far as I can tell, but elaborating on his views could soften the blow for any progressive skimming through The Motte. In his defense, he was responding to "Hanania is literally the only thing keeping me from falling back into white supremacy, someone please throw me a lifeline!". He did. I understand how the post might be a turn off as a stand alone one, but surely even a progressive could see the value in providing peaceful and non-racist alternatives to white supremacy?
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