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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   26927 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 25, 2023

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It would have been much better, and I probably wouldn't have posted a mod warning at all.

Pithyness is the bigger sin. We do tone police around here. The comment as you wrote it would allow a democrat to come in here and push back. The comment as it was originally written would be much more likely to start a flame war.

We do tone police around here.

Is this a new thing for here, because I nearly am certain that was not over on the old Motte? I have a vague recollection of previous mod confrontations where the line was "we police content, not tone".

Though sarcasm was an exception to that: first it was "no we never ban for sarcasm alone", then it was "of course we ban for sarcasm".

Is this a new thing for here, because I nearly am certain that was not over on the old Motte? I have a vague recollection of previous mod confrontations where the line was "we police content, not tone".

What? How have you been here this long and gotten this so wrong? We have always policed tone and not content.

I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to wrt sarcasm, but I suspect it's something I said at some point. I generally will not ban someone for sarcasm alone (though I might issue a warning), but if you are a repeat offender and you post something that's sarcastic and antagonistic, of course that might earn you a ban.

Hmmm - I am getting definite "we have always been at war with Eastasia" vibes here, because I do have the feeling that there was this precise debate over a ban or modding or something and it was "we don't police tone, don't be silly, we're not going to ban someone just for the way they phrased something unless they were deliberately offensive".

Or maybe I'm just old and stupid and slowly sliding into dementia.

Hmmm - I am getting definite "we have always been at war with Eastasia" vibes here, because I do have the feeling that there was this precise debate over a ban or modding or something and it was "we don't police tone, don't be silly, we're not going to ban someone just for the way they phrased something unless they were deliberately offensive".

I am having a very, very hard time believing that you actually believe this. It would be easier to believe that you really are sliding into dementia, but no, I don't believe that either.

We have been criticized many times, by many people (including you) for how we mod, and one of the most frequent complaints is that we will warn or ban people who say "true" things or make valid points but are too belligerent or insulting about it. You, personally, have been modded many times precisely because of your tone. To say that we have always policed content and that we claim not to police tone is so dramatically contrary to the whole point of the Motte that I am literally sitting here gobsmacked and trying to figure out if you're just fucking with us. We police content, really? That's why we let "fascist pedophiles" and Holocaust deniers and white nationalists and people questioning whether women are sentient post weekly threads?

What the everloving fuck?

You, personally, have been modded many times precisely because of your tone.

I think that's where the problem comes in. X thinks they are being heated but civil, Y thinks they are being belligerent. On a topic where people feel strongly, it's hard to be cool and dispassionate.

The second and separate argument is "but we don't ban paedophile apologists, Holocause deniers, etc." and my response to that is "yeah, so?" That's your decision to make as to what content is acceptable. Where it bleeds over is "you are being banned for your belligerent tone (and also stop talking about this one thing all the time)".

The second and separate argument is "but we don't ban paedophile apologists, Holocause deniers, etc." and my response to that is "yeah, so?"

So... they are not banning based on content?

Where it bleeds over is "you are being banned for your belligerent tone

Look, I already ate a ban or two for being "antagonistic" and think the criteria are rather arbitrary, and depend on the particular mod's mood, but I think it's pretty clear there's no bleed over between moderating on tone, and moderating on content.

(and also stop talking about this one thing all the time)".

So far the only person this was applied to is a guy that is literally unable to discuss anything other than Holocaust revisionism.

Not commenting on the dementia, but yeah you are wrong here, moderating on tone is one of the things that interested me in the Motte, back in the day. You can have almost any position as long as you discuss it civilly.

Indeed, that might be the most important thing, given what is being discussed. The Motte without tone policing is a much worse place in my view. We've had some people banned only for breaches of tone. TrannyPornO for example was a prolific and useful poster who was unable to keep to the tone requirements and picked up escalating bans for it.

Modding on tone over content is one of the defining features of theMotte, i would suggest.

Just goes to show how interpretations differ. I was going on "we only ban for egregious insult and bad faith" but then that got caught up in "why did you ban this, it might be heated but it's not insulting" and a lot of to-and-fro over what the mods considered bad tone and what the posters thought, with views all over the place.

"we police content, not tone"

No, that is what most social media places do. We do the opposite. You can post about Nazis, or how you don't think trans people are real versions of their preferred gender. You need to do it politely and in a way that other people can engage you in conversation.

So yes, fluff everything out to triple length with AI, but don't admit it, got it.

fwiw, @firmamenti's post was pretty obviously written by an AI. Because it added nothing but more words. All you people whining that we just mod based on word count are wrong and always have been.

Of course if you start using AI to pad your posts, you might slip some by us, but I for one will start being quicker with the ban button if people decide it's cute to make us play "spot the AI."

We will ban people for making AI written posts.

It is often obvious what is an AI post, unless someone takes a bunch of steps to dirty up the writing. Then all they are doing is regular writing with extra steps.

The length of that post was not the issue. It was the pithyness and the attitude of "these people aren't worth talking to". If they had padded out the length while keeping the same attitude there still would have been a problem.

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