This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
As others have suggested, your chart doesn’t really suggest that there’s as much correlation between Yamnaya ancestry and quality of civilization as you suggest - the Scottish are quite a bit more Indo-European than the French, the Ukrainians vastly more Indo-European than the Greeks… The Scots were disproportionately represented in the British imperial workforce, true, but Scotland is still poorer and has shorter life expectancy than most of England. For the entire period between 1971 and 2010, all 10 of the 10 “most deprived” local authorities in the UK were in Glasgow alone. What great achievements did the Indo-Europeans have before they invaded Europe? And what makes them German as opposed to Baltic, Ukrainian, or Czech?
I'm not suggesting every single group with greater Yamnayan ancestry has greater achievement than those with less. I am suggesting there is a relationship in the split between Northern and Southern Europe, broadly speaking, that is partially explained by differences in genetics. Key features of Northern European civilization, like the industrial revolution emerging in the North Sea area and colonial ambitions, are also reminiscent of the I.E expansions. Attributing those accomplishments solely to neolithic European farmers is unlikely and self-serving, given those accomplishments and behaviors seem most concentrated where I.E left the greatest genetic legacy.
The obvious test is ‘is there a contrast between Americans of Italian descent and those of Irish descent’- these are both largely unselected diaspora populations living in the same area of the country, and clash on the genetic frequency you’ve identified. I don’t think you’re going to find huge outcome divisions.
More options
Context Copy link
I think geography and climate probably explain a lot as well.
As far as geography, things like trading, contact with other cultures, wars, etc. probably play a rather large role in creating the culture of society. Take a bunch of really generically good, smart people and stick them on an island … and you’ll have feudal Japan. Stick the same type of smart people on islands surrounded by trading partners, and have them fight wars with each other and with other people … you get Ancient Greece.
Climate likewise would likely drive cultural development. If you live in Northern Europe or China, you live in a place where food must not only be grown, but preserved. You live in a place where you have to build sturdy and warm shelters, produce warm clothing, etc. this quite obviously selects very strongly for a culture that plans ahead. If the reverse is true and you live in a tropical paradise, there’s absolutely no reason a culture would ever develop even farming, let alone food preservation, advanced construction, or high cooperation. Everything is simply available for th3 plucking, and other than shelter against rain, you don’t need protection from the elements.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link