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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   28109 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 18, 2023

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The interpol warrant is not dispositive here

I didn't say it was.

it's odd that this hasn't been going through the normal channels for extradition

How do you know it hasn't? This indicates that Indian authorities did not seek extradition until August of 2022. If that is correct, obviously proceeding would not have concluded by the time of his killing in June.

Bombing a movie theatre" is normally a thing that is not subject to the various loopholes in extradition treaties

Says who? Do you think the rule is that in order for a foreign country to avoid the protections afforded to Canadian citizens, all it has to do is allege a serious crime? Are Canadians morons?

Are Canadians morons?

Are you? Interpol doesn't give out warrants on a bare allegation, and neither does Canada extradite on that basis -- sometimes we refuse to extradite for minor charges, or things that would not be crimes in Canada -- bombing a movie theatre is not those, that's the point. The recent extradition looks like it's related to more recent crimes -- but even so, it's been over a year with no action -- it all seems a bit strange.

What even is your point here?

Interpol doesn't give out warrants on a bare allegation,

  1. "A Red Notice is NOT an arrest warrant and is NOT based on any INTERPOL investigation"
  2. I was referring to an allegation by India, not Interpol

sometimes we refuse to extradite for minor charges, or things that would not be crimes in Canada -- bombing a movie theatre is not those, that's the point.

No, the point is that there are other causes for denial of extradition, including, most importantly, the severity of the sentence faced by the person whose extradition is being sought. In particular, Canada will not extradite a person if that person faces the death penalty if convicted.

More specifically, the point is that your claim that Canada will ignore the protections provided its citizens if another country simply files super-serious charges, especially given the abuses I note above re abuse of Interpol red notices.

but even so, it's been over a year with no action

  1. How do you know that there has been no action? Do you have any idea how long extraditions usually take? Did the Indian government ever actually file a formal request for extradition? If so, when? Because the article I linked to stated only that local authorities in Punjab were seeking extradition, but of course the treaty says, "The request for extradition shall be made through diplomatic channels," so that means it has to be made by the Indian federal govt, not the local govt.
  2. One reason it has been "over a year with no action" is that he has been dead since June. And, let's take a look at a famous recent Canadian extradition case: That of Meng Wanzhou. That Wikipedia page says that it took more than a year between the receipt of the extradition request in Dec of 2018 and the start of the first phase of the extradition hearing in January of 2020. So, where is your evidence that 10 months with "no [public] action" is

You didn't answer the question.

I stated my point very clearly, twice:

  1. "The Interpol reference might not mean much. There has apparently been quite a bit of abuse of Interpol procedures on the part of authoritarian governments in recent years."
  2. "My only point was that the fact that Interpol has issued an arrest warrant does not, in and of itself, necessarily mean anything."

OK, so all I'm saying that the Interpol Red-thingee means is that India feels it has enough evidence to charge this guy if he shows up back in India -- which is also normally enough to have a poke at extradition proceedings. (which may or may not succeed)

So if India wants this guy enough to order a hit, it seems weird that they wouldn't have tried a little harder to extradite him first. Unless Canada told them "you can try but we will say no".

(BTW one of the most consistently annoying aspects of conversations with you is your tendency to veer off the main point to nitpick things like calling an Interpol Red Listing (or whatever they call it) a warrant -- if you are going to do that you should at least take pains not to refer to it that way yourself at other times)

@jkf If you find @Gdanning annoying you should either not engage, or engage in a non-antagonistic manner.

Gdanning made the antagonistic comment about Canadians, but otherwise backed off and only addressed points about the argument.

@jkf you were antagonistic multiple times in a row, despite no escalation from gdanning. Consider this a warning.

Point taken on rising to bait, but for clarity what were the times that I was antagonistic other than asking gdanning if he was a moron after he asked me if I was one?

You didn't answer the question.

...

BTW one of the most consistently annoying aspects of conversations with you

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nitpick things like calling an Interpol Red Listing (or whatever they call it) a warrant

That wasn't my point at all. My point was that Interpol does not do its own investigation. And, the only reason I referred to it as a warrant is that you did; note that I initially referred to "Interpol procedures" and I did that precisely because I did not know for sure what specific Interpol procedures tend to be abused, and which is also why I said, "The Interpol reference might not mean much."

And, perhaps you might think about why you got so bent out of shape by a simple observation that the Interpol reference might not mean much. And that there has apparently been quite a bit of abuse of Interpol procedures on the part of authoritarian governments in recent years. Yet you took that as some sort of claim that there was a good reason for him not to have been extradited, which I did not say at all.

And that there has apparently been quite a bit of abuse of Interpol procedures on the part of authoritarian governments in recent years.

This seems to be a claim that you are just taking at face value and expecting me to do the same -- obviously Interpol doesn't go and investigate things, rather issues their "whatever you want to call thems" based on evidence provided by the country of origin.

So you seem to be suggesting that India (parliamentary democracy, not authoritarian government BTW) faked evidence to get Interpol to put this guy on their list, but wouldn't do the same thing to try to have him extradited from Canada? But would send assassins to shoot him on Canadian soil? I don't really get it.

This seems to be a claim that you are just taking at face value

Well, I provided a link, and frankly it is pretty common knowledge. The Heritage Foundation has written about it and federal law now requires that the State Department issue biannual reports on the practice.

So you seem to be suggesting that India (parliamentary democracy, not authoritarian government BTW) faked evidence

  1. No, as I said, "The Interpol reference might not mean much" and "My only point was that the fact that Interpol has issued an arrest warrant does not, in and of itself, necessarily mean anything." Note the tentative nature of those statements.
  2. Ostensible parliamentary democracies can be authoritarian. See, eg, Hungary. And if you are not aware of the trends toward authoritarianism in India in recent years, you should be. Again, it is common knowledge and has been a somewhat thorny issue re US foreign policy of late.

but wouldn't do the same thing to try to have him extradited from Canada?

As noted several times, neither you nor I know what efforts India made to extradite him, and we certainly don't know what evidence it gave to Canada in support of any application it submitted.

But would send assassins to shoot him on Canadian soil?

  1. I have not opined that they did. I simply noted that the Interpol action is not necessarily evidence of anything.

  2. However, yes, regimes sometimes prefer their opponents dead to the alternative of giving a forum to their views via a trial. Especially a leader of a secessionist movement. Moreover, an assassination gives the regime deniability, unlike a trial. So there is nothing inherently illogical about it.

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