This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
While I lean towards defending the car culture side in the overall debate, I think I'd soften that a bit. See how much the car drivers moan when they have to wade into an environment that actually does favor pedestrians and transit at a large scale, like Manhattan. Are the car drivers special snowflakes who hate to drive unless they have massive free parking lots everywhere, lots of wide-open 45mph multilane roads, and very few pesky pedestrians who have a tendency to go every which way on a whim?
I'd say more neutrally that the desires of drivers and pedestrians are fundamentally at odds with each other. A large-scale environment that's great for walking, like good enough that Sam the Stockbroker in Manhattan, who makes enough to keep a BMW in a private garage, chooses to walk and take the train to his job anyways because it's easier and better, will inevitably be bad for cars, due to expensive and scarce parking, slow and narrow streets, and pedestrians going every which way. Meanwhile, if it's great for driving, it will suck for walking, because of the huge parking lots, huge distances between things, and narrow and poorly maintained sidewalks with intimidating high-speed car traffic only a few feet away. My overall point is more that any environment that favors one or the other cannot be changed to be the other way without basically demolishing the entire city and rebuilding everything differently.
You have to work very hard to make cars worse than walking and transit. And despite all the effort Manhattan puts into that, it's still full of cars, so the answer to your question is "no".
More options
Context Copy link
Car drivers dont want to go to Manhattan at all. No one doe, really. They are forced to because its a place with concentrated economic opportunities.
Hm, I don't know. I hear that there are certain cultural advantages to going into Manhattan. Theater and art and live music and comedy, for example.
And, in addition to the current Hollywood releases, here is a list of movies playing in Manhattan (a Tuesday, btw):
20 Days in Mariupol
Afire
Antichrist
Avanti!
Biosphere
Bobi Wine: The People's President
Close to Vermeer
Contempt (le Mepris)
Earth Mama
El Agua
Ghost in the Shell
Have You Got It Yet? The Story of Syd Barrett and Pink Floyd
I Was Born, But...
I Vitelloni Kokomo City
Lakota Nation vs. United States
Long Day's Journey Into Night
Love & Basketball
Out Of Sight
Past Lives
Persona
Revoir Paris Rocky Aur Rani Ki Prem Kahaani
Showgirls
Shrapnel Sympathy for the Devil
The Lost Weekend
The Rules of the Game
The Flowers Of St. Francis
The Spirit Of St. Louis
The Unknown Country
The Beasts
The Mother and the Whore
The Wicker Man
The Lesson
Theater Camp
Umberto Eco: A Library Of The World
Walid War Pony
We Need To Talk About Kevin
While We Watched
You Hurt My Feelings
Sure that is a bit interesting. How many of those people going to Manhattan for a movie/play both drive a car there AND complain incessantly about pedestrians?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Manhattan has an awful lot of $500/month+ parking spaces for a place nobody wants to drive to. And an awful lot of $2k/month and up (way, way up) apartments for a place nobody wants to live in. The oddball hoops you have to jump through to get a rental there suggest that the number of people who very badly want to live there and are willing to pay out the nose for the privilege remain quite high.
I don't think it's that controversial of a statement to say that people who like urban spaces really like them and are willing to pay and make other sacrifices to live there (small spaces and lots of possibly annoying neighbors nearby), and people who like rural spaces also really like them and are willing to make different sacrifices to live there (nothing close by, moderate drive to get to 1 or 2 small grocery stores, hardware stores, bars, etc and maybe very long drive to get to any more or bigger of the above).
There are people who like it, a small amount. There are a greater number of people who like not having to drive to their job because it is so close. The people driving there don't want to be there at all, they wish they could magic their office to a different location not in Manhattan.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Do you actually think that there is nobody who would want to be in Manhattan, except for that it affords them opportunities to make money? I spent some time in NYC and found certain parts of Manhattan extremely appealing. Sure, I understand for that a lot of people who feel a much greater desire for space than I do, it could be unbearably crowded and restricting. For bug-men like me, though, having so many different things to do, in such a small and walkable/transit-accessible environment, Manhattan’s appeal is evident.
There is always somebody who wants something. But most people are there to collect money, yes.
Roughly 1.7 million people live in Manhattan, a great many of whom were born there and have lived there for their entire lives. They have roots there - deep social networks, connections to their local neighborhoods and communities, and to the activities offered by those communities. Is this another one of those delusional posts where a non-urbanite assumes that nobody actually likes living in cities, or feels any connection to the cities where they live?
No, I'm merely commenting on the commuters and the people who live in Manhattan because of proximity to their work. This will be the majority of people in Manhattan during business hours.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link