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The key to understanding the “problem with men” today is to look at contingent rewards. Men are motivated toward behaviors by the rewards that follow most efficiently. The rewards are the same as always: sex, money, social status, and fun about sum up the most powerful rewards that men pursue socially. With contingent rewards in mind, consider Andrew Tate.
Andrew Tate made his money by manipulating women into his online prostitution ring, who then manipulated lonely men into sending them their money. He also, in the past couple years, has sat down for interviews with journalists like Tucker Carlson and Piers Morgan; has won the admiration of millions of young men; has a number of attractive women profess interest in him; has riches and status symbols; and has even scored a date with Jordan Peterson’s daughter. This last one symbolically sums up the whole point to be made: the man who embodies moralizing to the public couldn’t even influence his own daughter to not spend time with a wealthy criminal. None of Peterson’s words had any influence on behavior. The men pursue their rewards, and his daughter pursues the rewarded man. What do men take away from this?
What matters are the rewards, and the behaviors that efficiently lead to the rewards. Andrew Tate, regardless his immorality, has obtained great rewards that are independent of any toothless “moral attack”. Because men want only rewards, they aren’t going care much for the complaining of random news writers and politicians and priests. What does that have to do with me becoming dominant and bedding attractive women, which is what I want? And so it’s no surprise that some men look up to Andrew Tate, without a care in the world for his crimes or immorality or the golden rule of morality or such things. There is no “moral police” to make any impact on his rewards!
Now you might say, “well hold it right there, buck-o, because I’ve see men on Twitter rail against Andrew Tate”. Yes, you do. And have you considered that railing against Tate is merely a way for them to rail Kate later that week? Have you not noticed that those men live in cities, that their tweets have a lot of engagement from women, that their public Spotify playlists contain Mazzy Star? Andrew Tate would travel all the way to Romania to obtain his social rewards, and you don’t think this guy’s lazy tweet isn’t in some mysterious way motivated by the same root interest? He’s not standing outside the Romanian embassy, he is expressing a view on a social media platform filled with women. He’s not writing this in the boy’s group chat. He’s not going over to 4chan to express his view to those “at-risk”. It’s performative. And yet, it’s not any more performative than all social expressions. All of it is behavior performed to obtain reward.
Now let’s look at the other extreme. Incels? Incels don’t exist in a quantity significant enough to warrant any care. “Incel” is the deactivation word that cues our mind to turn off from thinking deeply. (Apropos, it works by castigating a group of men as unable to obtain the most foundational reward.) The opposite of Andrew Tate is the sexless and wifeless. What’s going on with them?
In the case of the loveless men, there are a few major problems. First, there is an absurd amount of superstimuli accessible to mollify male energy: tik tok, porn, and video games. There is a clear association between hours spent on these and sexlessness whether or not any scientist has studied it. Second, we have eradicated what I will call the “foreplay” of social reward. There was a time where young men and young women would flirt at any opportunity in social “intercourse”, and where not complimenting a woman on her beauty was seen as faux pas. Women would have to be subtle about rejecting men flatly, so as to not ruin the delicate social gamification at play. This “social foreplay” incentivized prosocial behavior from both sexes. In its absence, women look for their required allotment of attention by posting lewds on social media, and men look for it by looking at said lewds and watching porn. Women, too, have their version of porn. It’s Mazzy Star songs and passively using dating apps.
The third issue for the loveless, as evidenced by the differential of female yearly sex versus male yearly sex, is dating apps. This is boring to dwell on, but the same men who watch the Andrew Tate content are mastering the art of manipulating women for easier sex on dating apps. Because it’s morally illegal today for fathers to control their daughters (see: the Petersons), women are routinely taken advantage of for easy sex. At the same time, some of them believe it’s fine to have short-term sexual flings, because they have no moral training and in any case there are no moral police. The moral result will be at lot of loveless men and women, a lot of old whores and old virgins, perhaps more assisted and unassisted suicides in the (not-)coming decades.
So we see neatly that social dysfunction springs out of perverse social reward structures. The only possible solution is to put order to social reward, which was the norm in human history. What do we make of religion? Here’s something to dwell on: religiosity across milieu perfectly tracks with how well the religion punishes immoral behavior and rewards good behavior. At the various heights of Christian practice, being a sinner meant ostracism or extreme loss of social capital. Being a “good Christian” meant men doing business with you and marrying their daughters to you. In current Hasidim, and current traditional Islam, we see the same phenomenon. A religion without intense judgment on behavior becomes weak, ineffectual, incapable of truly changing the nature of men.
When we talk about men in the past who lived for God, we forget that living for God just so happened to line up exactly with the efficient path to social reward. We forget that God was to them the justification for all social reinforcement and punishment. For the Amish, social status and marriageability are actually decided by righteousness — not with perfect accuracy, but more than 50%. Community participation is essential, and those who do not participate are completely excluded from the polis. These also happened to be the most fecund Americans.
Overall, I guess I totally disagree with the article’s framing of the issues. Masculinity, manliness, Incels? Red herrings. The issue is that men chase rewards, and the rewards today are disordered. In sum, there is less reward for marriage and honesty, there is more reward for pursuing entertainment alternatives, and there are less available women because they too choose disordered rewards. Whether men “behave like men” or whatever is completely erroneous and doesn’t matter.
Is he even having a wife?
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Incels (in the sense of men who are greatly conscious and worried about their lack of sexual success) may be at the opposite spectrum of Andrew Tate in terms of sexual success, but that's just one aspect of difference, and a pretty obvious one. I know some (but not all) incels who differ from lothario types not in their attitude towards women (entitled, needy, cold) but in their competence. If someone's difference from Andrew Tate is that they're less competent speakers/dressers/abusers, then I don't regard them as the opposite of Andrew Tate, any more than I regard a basement dwelling fascist as the opposite of Hitler because the latter was powerful.
Not All Incels are Like That, obviously. Maybe not most, for all I know.
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Is it even a prostitution ring? I thought it was essentially camgirl stuff -- which to me is more like porn than whoring even if it's done by livestream.
Other than pissing off the left with his TRP rhetoric, it seems his biggest mistake was in 'getting high on his own supply', which opens up the rape charges. (or committing actual rape, as the case may be)
Otherwise how does he really differ from (say) Hugh Hefner?
From the texts I’ve seen, he actually used psychological manipulation tactics and possibly illegal coercion to get the women to work for him. Then, he would get the girls to scam and lie to the men to get their money (claiming they will meet them, etc).
More like a strip club owner (or every sales manager ever!) than a porno publisher I guess -- still doesn't seem that bad. (apart from the alleged rape of course)
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Aesthetics, attitude, and tone, I guess. We associate Hefner with classiness in a way that we don't for Tate. Hefner was a man who ran a popular publication and probably kept the sexuality more wink-wink, while Tate would need a lot of effort to shed the MMA Bro image he has.
Read a vintage Playboy some time. It really was publishing interesting news, fashion, fiction, interviews.
At the very least, imagine if Tate also published SlowBoring on substack.
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Thank you for articulating the argument about this 'everything is about sex and status' take that is so popular on here. I've been trying to say something similar but I think you nailed it - it's totally tautological and impossible to disprove.
Reported for quality contribution!
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Well, there are two ways to look at the pursuit of noble goals. The first way is to declare that there is no nobility in any goal pursuit, because in fact the pursuer just wants primitive satisfactions. The second way — my own way — is to instead say that the noble pursuit is comprised of primitive satisfactions. Nobility itself is constructed of less noble enjoyments, but this doesn’t mean that the noble pursuit is not real. Let me give a random example of a Kurdish woman dying for her home village against a radical Islamist invasion. This is noble, right? I would say so. So why would she do it? First, because she was raised in a tribal and traditional society with strict moral rules (eg infidelity means jail time), so various enjoyments in her life were seen as originating from her Kurd family and tribal ties, rather than her own individual actions and efforts. This naturally creates a love for her tribe and family. Second, something good for the Kurds is good for those whom she loves and who look like her and act like her and live like her and share her blood. We can call this a “selfish noble action” if we want: she sacrifices herself to make the lives of those she is most like better, because she was raised to learn that she herself is a part of a whole — and this learning required the tribe to exert control over individuals’ behaviors. Most selfishly, her actions benefit her siblings, cousins, and her children if applicable.
The problem is that if we analyze the lives of the people who seriously pursue noble things, they always exist within an ecosystem of rewards. The architects, composers, authors, and scientists expect to get paid and be admired. They expect to earn accolades and compete over them. They take slights to their status — their worthiness of reward — extremely seriously. They might aim to have sex with groupies. At military academies, where noble behavior is essential, reward and punishment related to behavior and status are neurotically and systematically meted out. And if we ever have another D Day, there will be soldiers behind you with their guns loaded to ensure that your “selfless noble actions” are carried out. The rare exceptions, like that Russian mathematician, are visibly insane.
Or, what better look at noble actions than a ship crew during the Age of Sail? It just so happens that the crews which behaved most admirably were the ones that were rewarded more justly by their Admiral. Violation of the norms of the status hierarchy, which is a violation of the structure of reward, meant public flagellation or death. Doing a good job? More alcohol — a straight shot to the reward system. Not paying sailors? Suddenly there is no more nobility, we are pirates now. And when they are on land again, they expect a lot of respect from the public and especially women.
Because it’s bad for the community. Which is why, if an Andrew Tate existed in the Islamic World, he would not be bedding but beheaded. If he existed in the 19th century, he would go the way of Joseph Smith. I am interested in what is best for a community because that’s the fun game I play in my head when writing at places like themotte, and it’s a hobby I’ve had since a teen. Do I participate in it out of a desire to be superior to ideological competitors? Well, probably — I’m only human. To quote Pascal’s thoughts,
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But I am in a game to deliver the best judgment. If I’m wrong, and someone judges better, then I lose the match. This game doesn’t occur everywhere. Try to deliver the best judgment to the girl at the bar who asks if you like her tattoo, or your friend who is deep into crypto. Quickly you will lose your reward. I think with the right organization of competition, you can maximize truth-seeking. Men have an instinctive drive for competition which is most obvious looking at online gaming.
Because this is how everyone behaves unless they are in an intense competition of discourse. Polemics are the backbone of truth-seeking. Could we ever come to scientific truth if we didn’t make scientists compete over accolades and positions? And even this isn’t enough, right? Just recently the President of Stanford was found to have fabricated his results from his scientist days. Cheating and replication crises abound. Because scientists only compete over truth insofar as that truth is rewarded. If your reward is feeling superior to scientists, you don’t have to rely on the peer review process.
I can give it a go. I 100% agree that some of those things are not terminal. I think what is terminal is novelty of instinctive pleasure, the vanity I mention above, and truly just sex. Sex with different beautiful women is surely a terminal reward. Being in a room with other men and sensing their respect and/or defeat is very likely an ingrained instinctual terminal reward, and maybe one day we’ll discover weird hormones that are released which affect our reward system (I’m sure of it). “Novel instinctive pleasure” means stuff like driving a really fast car; it’s interesting that even hamsters enjoy running on a wheel, and wild animals will play with swings and balls. This also allows us to make sense of addiction and how insanely terrifying it is, and how it can affect people of any social status. For an alcoholic, alcohol is just pure reward like sex and respect. It competes with the most primitive pleasures. Absurd anti-social risks are posed with alcohol and gambling because they are so damn primitive.
I don’t disagree here. Andrew Tate is clearly very intelligent and has great speaking skills. I would say that’s tangential to my main point.
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I agree with the vast majority of this, with the caveat that I don't think it's good to flat-out asserting
without any evidence. (Although I'm sure it's true).
How does the arrest of Andrew Tate affect your thoughts here? Seems to be a belated consequence but a pretty big one.
Tate’s arrest came way too late, and it’s a house arrest right now. If he does go to jail for a long time, I think this would have an effect on reducing imitation of his lifestyle, but it’s hard to say how much. Because I think people recognize that his arrest is partially due to his popularity and that if he weren’t so popular he probably wouldn’t be pursued as he is. And being rich + getting laid for a decade or more and then going to jail is actually a bargain many men will take; it’s essentially the kernel of criminality.
Why? Young men with no prospects imitating criminals (and eventually joining them) has been a thing for... like ever.
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Hah! You're not wrong :)
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