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No.. SOMETHING IS MISSING FROM THIS ENTIRE CONVERSATION.
@self_made_human
Yes agreed. But you mean being in a situation where you have to pass a black man late at night on a spooky street, and I mean living in a universe where black people are scary. (I mean, you in particular probably agree with me on that too but- this popped to me when you said that.)
@hanikrummihundursvin
Ok. Then how do we get better DNA?
I'm going somewhere with this I swear. This isn't just transhumanism- this is-
Yes! This is so close to what I want to say! You can't just shove the unfit in random places and expect magic to happen... But as long as you still pressure them to do well in the places you shove them (->this might be a good place to attack<-), you can expect magic to happen. Giraffes didn't get long necks by magic or genetic drift. They got them by breeding with Giraffes with long necks!
My point- what this whole conversation is missing- SEXUAL SELECTION IS METALEMARKIAN On a species-wide level, giraffes DID get longer necks by trying to have longer necks!!! So there is good reason to give races opportunity to aspire towards one another's greatness.
Also, memetic selection is Lemarkian even faster. But that's somewhat evened out by the fact that you and competitors both have a whole planet of well developed memes already at your fingertips when you decide to do something- And is already present in this thread implicitly (cultural differences are memetic.) And- its already factored in. A lot of G seems to be the ability to select the correct memetics from those available.
But this seems to suggest to get to a better answer we need to mate the less smart with the more smart instead of the more smart with the more smart. Why isn’t the latter preferred?
This only presents a problem if you're trying to use inductive reason to model an anti-inductive phenomenon.
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Eh? I admit I'm not an expert on giraffe evolution, but I've never heard that they had any sexual selection for long necks. The story I heard was that it was a Red Queen's race with trees, which began growing ever taller so their leaves were out of reach of herbivores, so giraffe ancestors grew taller to compensate.
This is distinct from say, peacock tails, which have no other practical utility.
I'm not sure how sure we are WRT giraffes, or what current consensus is. But there have been some contesting the Red queens race with trees hypothesis, in favor of a sexual selection hypothesis. Centered around their neck based mating battles. Those females just can't get enough of that longneck.
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That's kinda of the naive theory, but it's now thought that long necks are also about fighting sexual rivals. Giraffes literally batter each other with their long necks.
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I'm not wholly sure what you're trying to say.
Giraffes got longer necks because the ones with necks too short to reach the treetops died of starvation. In short, sexual selection is meta-Lamarckian (i.e. not Lamarckian) to the extent that successful variants reproduce and unsuccessful variants don't. Creating these conditions artificially was the core of classical eugenics, but I don't think it's what you're advocating?
Yeah maybe I should have chosen a species with less contested evolutionary causation.
from Wikipedia:
There are several hypotheses regarding the evolutionary origin and maintenance of elongation in giraffe necks.[57] Charles Darwin originally suggested the "competing browsers hypothesis", which has been challenged only recently. It suggests that competitive pressure from smaller browsers, like kudu, steenbok and impala, encouraged the elongation of the neck, as it enabled giraffes to reach food that competitors could not. This advantage is real, as giraffes can and do feed up to 4.5 m (15 ft) high, while even quite large competitors, such as kudu, can feed up to only about 2 m (6 ft 7 in) high.[63] There is also research suggesting that browsing competition is intense at lower levels, and giraffes feed more efficiently (gaining more leaf biomass with each mouthful) high in the canopy.[64][65] However, scientists disagree about just how much time giraffes spend feeding at levels beyond the reach of other browsers,[12][57][63][66] and a 2010 study found that adult giraffes with longer necks actually suffered higher mortality rates under drought conditions than their shorter-necked counterparts. This study suggests that maintaining a longer neck requires more nutrients, which puts longer-necked giraffes at risk during a food shortage.[67]
Another theory, the sexual selection hypothesis, proposes the long necks evolved as a secondary sexual characteristic, giving males an advantage in "necking" contests (see below) to establish dominance and obtain access to sexually receptive females.[12] In support of this theory, necks are longer and heavier for males than females of the same age,[12][57] and males do not employ other forms of combat.[12] However, one objection is it fails to explain why female giraffes also have long necks.[68] It has also been proposed that the neck serves to give the animal greater vigilance.[69][70]
The point really isn't about Giraffes. The point is that you can argue for affirmative action as a sort of eugenics through social integration into a specific environment.
Appreciate it, and it's interesting to hear about the sexual selection theory.
I think my point about sexual selection still stands, though. The core of sexual selection, and of classical eugenics, is that the fit breed and the unfit die. As a method of group improvement this probably works but is ethically dubious.
I can think of two things you might be arguing for, and I'm not sure which of them you're going for:
If you introduce a fitness 0.5 individual into a fitness 1.0 environment, that individual's children are more likely to have high fitness. Unfortunately that's balanced out by their partner having less fit children, so from a population perspective it's a wash.
If you introduce people into a more stringent environment and force them to live up to new standards, they'll improve. This is what I think you mean, but there are many issues. It doesn't change the underlying genetics, and also if the affirmative action'd people can't live up to your standards then you will either have to lower your standards (fail) or try harder to force them to do something they can't do (fail + induce unnecessary suffering). In cases where residential schools and the like got really nasty, I suspect the latter was a big part of the problem.
Am I totally off here?
I read his post as
I think there are some problems with this theory. It obviously still allows for an underclass, disfavored by almost all mates. Is this “racist?” Either way, it kind of imports all the usual hazards of conventional eugenics.
When you aren't subsidising and heavily encouraging reproduction in said underclass, from a HBD perspective the problem solves itself after a few generations. You don't have to do anything particularly evil to make a population that can't reproduce fast enough to sustain itself go away - and the ones that do survive are going to be better matches for whatever you're actually selecting for to boot.
How does one actually encourage reproduction? If you know any tricks, please share them and save the west.
The way you phrased it, the only way I can think of to stop encouraging the reproduction of an underclass is to literally let them starve. Humans will breed in incredibly destitute circumstances, I suspect the worse their lot the more fecund they become.
Or are you actually suggesting to make them so rich as to voluntarily stop breeding, the Gates gambit?
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