site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   30730 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 3, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Again and again, why do people keep on jumping to race as the most accurate way to filter for being able to integrate?

If someone keeps preferring racial discrimination to other methods of filtering, the most parsimonious explanation is that they are racist. If filtering by wealth or education leads to disparate impacts, that might be racist but it also might just be a preference for rich, educated immigrants and the disparate impact on people from the Middle East or Africa is too bad. If they say "I prefer Whites to Asians and Asians to Africans", it requires a lot of mental gymnastics to explain how that's not just racism.

If someone keeps preferring racial discrimination to other methods of filtering, the most parsimonious explanation is that they are racist.

As other point, you are just using the word "racist" as a conversation stopper. Many other types of "filtering" are also verboten and can make you a sexist, classist, islamophobe (or other phobe), ageist, ableist and so forth, and all it takes is to "prove" disparate effect. So in the end who cares if Skibboleth think it is racist, everything is racist of course.

Second, people are not playing by the same rules. Filtering by race (or sex or age or whatever) is okay if you point out to disparate outcomes. So under your definition, somebody who claims that black men are disproportionately target of police brutality is racist and sexist just by virtue of using such a filter, right? Moreover if one looks and sees that black or Hispanic people prefer to vote for black/Hispanic politicians, this means that they are themselves racist as well.

If they say "I prefer Whites to Asians and Asians to Africans", it requires a lot of mental gymnastics to explain how that's not just racism.

You're making the worst argument in the world.

The central example of 'racist' is a neo-nazi who yells racial slurs and innocent passers-by. You're purposefully conflating this (terrible) behaviour with the far more reasonable behaviour of having a preference over the type of immigrants ones country imports.

Am I? If anything, this seems the opposite - deflecting criticism by pointing to a more extreme example. The most extreme example of a racist is a neo-nazi who yells racial slurs and whatnot. This is not the typical example of a racist, and would have been pretty unusual even in the most racist historical environments. If someone holds strongly racially prejudiced views and those views motivate their politics and behavior, it is entirely fair to characterize them racist, even if they are polite in person to the object of their animus.

The actual policy we're discussing is an immigration policy that favours people who are similar to the existing (often native) ethnic group. In other words, a political manifestation of the preference for living near people who look like you.

And more or less everyone, from the immigrants themselves to the most full-throated supporters of multiracialism and immigration does prefer to live among people like themselves.

As far as I can tell, the only sin of the people you call racist is that they want more people to be able to act on the revealed preferences that we all share.

The actual policy we're discussing is an immigration policy that favours people who are similar to the existing

Is it? The comment I was replying was:

Again and again, why do people keep on jumping to race as the most accurate way to filter for being able to integrate?

which was in response to:

I think Europe should be a bit "pragmatically racist" in selecting groups from countries that have a track record of integrating well, e.g. I'd give preference for South-East Asia, but it appears that such a moderate policy is too racist even for the "far-right".

Which suggests an immigration policy that favors people from particular countries or regions. As @atokenliberal6D_4 noted, this is completely unnecessary. As far as I can tell, the most parsimonious explanation for this is a preference for racial discrimination over evaluating individual candidates (which is what we already do).

And more or less everyone, from the immigrants themselves to the most full-throated supporters of multiracialism and immigration does prefer to live among people like themselves.

I don't have a problem with the proposition that most people are racist (though only some people make racism central to their political preferences). Most people are liars, but I still think honesty is good.

The White Australia Policy was also a pretty central example of racism.

Fair enough. It is not just racism it is justified racism then. Chinese immigrants have proven they could assimilate and thrive all around the world. So are the other east Asians. So are the Indian upper classes, jews and whites. So if you have to choose immigrants - you choose from cultures with proven track record. If racism leads to better outcomes for my country - so be it.

If you need 1000000 workers today what would you choose - a million Koreans or a million Chechens?

A million Chechens, obviously, because Chechens are white and Koreans aren't.

Of course, this is a nonsense scenario for multiple reasons, but most prominently: we don't have to issue visas based on such crude measures as race or even nationality. We can and do discriminate amongst applications based on the qualities of individual applicants.

A million Chechens, obviously, because Chechens are white and Koreans aren't.

...and there in you demonstrate that the "uncharitable strawman" of HBD is not a strawman at all.

I'm not sure anything I say should be taken as indicative of HBD positions, since I am being facetious.

again, six or a half dozen regardless.

???

He was making an uncharitable strawman in order to take the piss out of HBDers, and you're saying it's evidence that it's not an uncharitable strawman?

I'm saying that the "uncharitable strawman" is not a "strawman" at all, but rather the standard/popular take.

The uncharitable strawman version of HBD (i.e. that it's just straightforward racism) is a reasonably accurate description, yes, but I'm not sure how directly relevant that is?

I know, but you cannot say his post proved that, because he was taking the piss.

...Pretty sure @Skibboleth is being sarcastic, not speaking plainly.

Six or a half dozen regardless.

  • -13

Arghhhh!!! The entire point is that it's not justified. If I needed to choose 1000000 workers I wouldn't arbitrarily straitjacket myself into needing all of then be from the same country/race---I would just pick the million best from everywhere the best way I can. There are so many other much more useful ways to distinguish people from each other. I am completely dumbfounded why this point is so hard for people to grasp.

And it’s worth noting that arguing that, say, whites assimilate to Italian culture better than southeast Asians, who assimilate better than Africans(or the same hierarchy for HBD) might be accurate, but it’s still racism. It’s just justified racism.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats