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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   2260 thread views

Friday Fun Thread for June 30, 2023

Be advised: this thread is not for serious in-depth discussion of weighty topics (we have a link for that), this thread is not for anything Culture War related. This thread is for Fun. You got jokes? Share 'em. You got silly questions? Ask 'em.

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I suppose it doesn't beggar credulity to imagine I could have, but for whatever reason intuition kicked in and I felt like it would have been untoward. I'm of two worlds--the Japanese, where even the wildest seeming transgressions are fine in the right context, and the American, where #takebackthenight from my university years, and, more recently, #Metoo, has probably dug its hooks into me to sufficient depth that I feel any physical contact that is uninvited is setting me up for accusation, and, worst-case scenario, martyrdom. I admit I probably should just subdue all that and act in the moment, but didn't. And probably wouldn't again.

But openly lightly touching someone on the shoulder or elbow while saying "excuse me" while watched by rest of the train?

Perhaps I don't understand Japan but this sounds more than a bit paranoid to me. But you probably know best.

Hindsight is clearer than I might prefer. I can only give you the vibe I felt at the time. Though I had not yet had the clarity provided by my morning coffee. I don't understand Japan that well, either. I did say the requisite すみません or "excuse me," but yeah, touching seemed off.

Given the context of being on a train, I'm a bit surprised you put most of the blame on your American background. I recall a fair bit of emphasis on cracking down on men groping/molesting women on trains (eg, with signage reminding men not to do so and encouraging women to report it) when I was there a few decades ago. Has that died down, or is my memory or impression of how seriously it was taken faulty in this case?

Hm. Maybe I am as you say "blaming" it on my American background. That's food for thought.

There are 女性専用車両 or women "only" train cars here, and in fact the car I usually ride is adjacent. But those are for instances of 痴漢　or chikan which essentially means "pervert" but in practice mans sleazy drunkass man who has lost his inhibitions and tries to cop a feel. You see signs at the station that being a chikan is bad (as if one needed to be told via sign) and that there are harsh penalties. Has it died down? I am not sure. Dads I know report their daughters, even at age 13 or so, have experienced discomfort or even unwanted brushing-up on trains. This suggests to me that it has not gone away. At the same time, the world here is different. Japanese women don't step up or protest, or they don't in the same way that say, an American, might imagine that they should. I don't even want to get into it, but they don't.

At the same time, touching a girl on the shoulder, well, I didn't think I'd be seen as a chikan in the Japanese sense, but a creep in the American sense. And as any man who isn't already a criminal pariah can attest, no appellation has quite the same sting.

Has it died down? I am not sure.

To be clear, I wasn't asking if such behavior had died down, but rather if the apparent furor over it had.

This suggests to me that it has not gone away. At the same time, the world here is different. Japanese women don't step up or protest, or they don't in the same way that say, an American, might imagine that they should. I don't even want to get into it, but they don't.

While this is true and I wouldn't expect her to cause a scene, I would be worried about her later reporting it to the station attendants. Being a foreigner sometimes excuses such things, but sometimes makes it worse. It'd certainly make it much easier to be identified if she were to, and I had perhaps the incorrect impression that the cultural norms against stirring the pot that typically make Japanese women reluctant to report such behavior weren't as big an obstacle if the perpetrator wasn't Japanese.

At the same time, touching a girl on the shoulder, well, I didn't think I'd be seen as a chikan in the Japanese sense, but a creep in the American sense. And as any man who isn't already a criminal pariah can attest, no appellation has quite the same sting.

Hmm...maybe I was the one projecting then. The impression I got while I was there was that there wasn't much of a distinction. EDIT: Or rather, that there wouldn't be much of a distinction in this situation--moving to touch a dozing girl on the shoulder looks a lot like testing the waters before actually molesting her.

I probably present myself as more of an accurate correspondent than is warranted. I have never read or heard of a foreigner who was accused of being a perv, molester, or chikan; the perpetrators are always Japanese. (Mind you, murderers, thieves, drug peddlers and whoremongers, yes, these are nearly always foreigners--or at leas the news stories with foreigners in such cases are sensationalized.)

Probably you're right in that if the perpetrator is foreign the accuser is more-or-less guaranteed at least a day in court. You seem to have a pretty accurate sense of things; I am not sure what I can add. I don't like making sweeping declarations, though I often do just that.

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