This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Don't think this is culture war as much as "it was inevitable".
I am glad to see SV get torn a new one. As a MechE turned CompSci person, the difference in ethos between both fields is shocking. It is one thing to have a careless approach when human lives aren't at stake. But to then throw shade towards fields where safety is paramount is classic SV hubris.
Thanks for saying this out loud. Credit where it is due to Apple. It is the only tech company that knows how to make robust physical products.
It seems like the "move fast and break things" ethos could still have a proper place in physical engineering. I look at SpaceX, for example. They move quickly and break things... until they have a reliable product they can safely put humans on. Falcon 9 is arguably the most reliable rocket in the world, because they were willing to move fast and break things.
What would that look like with a deep submersible? Maybe an autonomous version that gets extensive testing and use before you put people on it? I don't know.
It does, it's just that we stopped having an existential need to do it, so we have the luxury of judging that "no risk is worth it". After all, there's nobody about to bomb us into the Stone Age if we're wrong about "it wasn't worth the risk".
Of course, 20 years of that and you're getting arrested for letting your children play in the front yard (because don't you know there's a 1e-9 annual risk of them getting snatched?), going outside without a mask (because don't you know that there's a 1e-9 risk of a healthy person under 60 dying of the Apocaflu?), or telling your son he's not a girl (because don't you know... yeah, you get the picture).
More options
Context Copy link
I'd be careful picking SpaceX or anything Elon does as a positive example of 'move fast and break things', the whole thing might very well end up like OceanGate.
Seems pretty unlikely at this point. They already have (arguably) the most reliable rocket in the world.
The rocket is ok, but I'm not sure I try their accounting. There was a leaked email from Elon about how they have to get Starship to orbit if they're to make any money, and I don't see that happening. Generally with Elon, there's a whole lot of hype, and not a whole lot of substance, so if the investor money dries up, his entire empire might come crashing down.
But I hope I'm wrong!
I don't know why you're so skeptical of Starship? They've clearly been making tons of progress on it. Hell, they even launched a failed test.
I can see why you might call Elon a bit of a hype machine, but really, he has delivered on quite a lot of his hype.
Electric cars? Yep
Electric trucks? Yeah
Self driving? Eh, no
Charging network? Yeah
Tons of battery manufacturing? Yeah
Orbital Rocket? Yeah
Reusable Orbital Rocket? Yeah
Reusable Heavy Orbital Rocket? Yeah
LEO satellite internet? Yeah.
Tunnels under every city? No.
Why am I supposed to get so excited about a failed test? Give me a fraction of the money Musk got, and I'll do a failed test too. As a bonus, I'll do none of the damage to the infrastructure, and environment that Musk did!
I'll stick to my Volkswagen, thanks.
Complete garbage that will never operate on anything close to the economy of a normal diesel truck.
What's supposed to be so fancy about either of those, and where does Solar City fit into these?
Like I said, it's a decent rocket, but hardly mindblowing.
Reusability is way overblown, and I haven't seen much evidence it brings all that much (any?) savings.
That's the thing he was crying about in the leaked email that is unprofitable, and why he needs Starship to make money.
Tunnels are an ancient technology, and his aren't any better. Also while we're here, let us meditate on how insane the idea of "hyperloop" is, and how it didn't go anywhere despite all the hype.
SpaceX resulted in massive price reduction of getting to orbit
More options
Context Copy link
But what you were saying is he doesn't deliver on things... not that you don't like the things.
I was saying that there's way more hype than substance in them.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link