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ZorbaTHut  2yr ago (text post)   5437 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for September 11, 2022

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I a not really comfortable being "in debt" to other people, even friends. So if somebody is a designated driver I always offer at least gas money, if somebody gives me a gift I feel the pressure to reciprocate ASAP, if somebody invites me for a dinner I need to plan dinner of my own to invite that person to and so forth.

Later in my life I found out that especially an unsolicited gift is one form of manipulation, it seems that a lot of people are hardwired to count it as a status game so I guess I want to return the favor on my own terms rather than waiting if this other person ever wants to "call in the favor" for something more. Interestingly from my observation there are loads of people who do not have this at all and they are comfortable to just receive without giving back. It is not that I have any issue if it is the other way around and my gifts/favors are not reciprocated, but it seems strange to me.

When I was a young teen a girl I had a crush on offered to bake my some cookies. I turned this offer down on the grounds that not causing her extra effort made me a more attractive partner. I now know that this was a foolish understanding of how gift giving and general reciprocity work. People like doing other people favors. It makes them feel good and useful, not because they expect an equal or greater reward in the future but because it satisfies their self conception as a good and resourceful friend. When you try to balance the scales constantly it makes relationships feel transactional and cheap, sudden the sacrifice I made to be your designated driver is cheapened to some gas money.

I live under the philosophy that I should look for and utilize opportunities to do large amounts of good for other people are low cost to me and just be genuinely grateful when others do likewise to my benefit.

Later in my life I found out that especially an unsolicited gift is one form of manipulation

People who do this are to be avoided.

deleted

People who give unsolicited gifts or people who use unsolicited gifts to manipulate?

unsolicited gifts to manipulate

it seems that a lot of people are hardwired to count it as a status game so I guess I want to return the favor on my own terms rather than waiting if this other person ever wants to "call in the favor" for something more.

I'm like you with regards to feeling uncomfortable being in debt, but I've learned that trying to return a debt on your own terms can for some odd reason cause friction, I guess you can still be the annoying demanding party insofar as you're asking them to show up so you can pay them back.

I try to stay away from creditor/debtor scenarios when it comes to personal relationships. If you're a close friend who really needs it I'll just give you the money.

My wife has always shared your sensibility on this sort of thing (not between us, outside our relationship) and I've always had trouble understanding it. It's not that I receive gifts without an expectation of reciprocity, it's that I'm perfectly fine with keeping some rough ledger in my head of what's owed and received and would regard any friend I can't do that with as someone that I don't much trust at all and probably not even really a friend. That extends from small monetary things like buying a round of drinks to non-monetary effort like helping someone move. I don't even really care if the ledger actually ever evens out, just that there's some rough approximation of equal effort and money.

Any favor is a blow to agency, to some extent. In the future it might easily be claimed to bear interest, moral if not financial. Cialdini in his book "Influence" has a section, devoted specifically to unprovoked gifts as a manipulation tool.

I have a parent with narcissistic traits who is also the breadwinner of the family who uses that form of manipulation. Gifts, vacations, and/or tuition money means forever debts that cannot be repaid and makes emotional, financial, and/or physical abuse beyond criticism (in their mind).

I've never liked gifts.

I don't care for borrowing/being borrowed from either. I've been on both sides of it when it created resentment. Good way to damage relationships.

I feel the same way unless something is very specifically denoted as a gift.

I feel no qualms about accepting a gift freely given, in the spirit it was intended. Similarly, I give gifts with the expectation that such won't necessarily be reciprocated, and that is more than okay. I might feel more affection for a person who gives me a gift, which noticeably makes me more pleasant towards them and more likely to give them a gift in the future, but it doesn't form any sort of obligation which might drive future behavior.

But if someone does a "favor" for me my brain basically forms an entry on a ledger that is even more indelible than the bitcoin blockchain, and I will carry that knowledge around with me until I somehow am able to wipe it clean by returning the favor or otherwise balance the books.

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