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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   32785 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 12, 2023

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Fair enough. Serious question: What is your plan for obtaining a critical mass?

From where I am standing, you and I are the possessor of exactly one human body each. Those bodies exist in the vicinity of many, many other bodies and so, whether either of us like it or not, they must contend with game theory.

The power of tyranny comes from fear. Fear is generated and maintained by observing punishment. Every time someone stands up for their principles without a plan to survive doing so (or at least to extract net benefit), I believe they are making of themselves a sacrifice to feed what they hate. So the outcome matters. Whether your beliefs work in situ matters. I’m not arguing for nihilistic pursuit of gain, but I am arguing for pragmatism, and sacrificing your lower-level principles when they’re sabotaging your ultimate ones.

I think we are going to have to suffer. As long as you require a reasonable return on your investment you will remain hostage to the powers that be.

The obvious question in such a case is who has the gun to who's head? If you try to take me hostage, I'll take you hostage first. You didn't really think the gun to the head was a metaphor did you?

So what would be an example of a situation in which you'd start non-metaphorically holding up people with Gun and expect it to help?

Well I don't have a gun, which is my biggest problem (second biggest: explaining why this is a problem to Australians). But my point is that we hold it to our own heads when we try to play by stable society rules in an unstable society.

From where I am standing, you and I are the possessor of exactly one human body each.

I have a family, so that's a couple-dozen people right there. I have a church, which is upwards of a thousand more. I have a state and, at least nominally, a political party, and finally a tribe. All of these can be encouraged, strengthened, grown, built-up, in ways small and large. The best way to avoid the problems of atomic individualism is to not be an atomic individualist.

The power of tyranny comes from fear.

Fear is a choice. It works by threatening things, and leveraging your desire to preserve them. The truth, however, is nothing can in fact be preserved. Death comes to all men soon or late. Everything you have will one day soon be gone, and this realization can be internalized, to a lesser or greater extent. Doing so immunizes you against fear to the degree the internalization is successful.

I am all for being intelligent, understanding the reality of the situation, and having a plan. What I have found, personally, is that your plan needs to account for the very real possibility that you will suffer significant losses, and you need to make peace with that reality in advance. Here is an example of what that peace looks like, from a time when people were trying to deal with a novel emergent threat of apparently titanic proportions. If one cannot grasp this peace, fear will never cease to cast the deciding vote.

This is not, I think, something that Rationalism is good at, speaking at least from my own meager attempts to apply it. Rationalism is about winning, about optimization, about superior planning leading to everything working out after all. This is one of the major reasons why I don't think Rationalism is actually a workable approach to cognition; it doesn't seem to encourage the sort of gambles that life requires, and its obsession with calculation self-defeats due to unaccounted errors.

In any case, some values are subordinate to others, true enough. But terminal values are not created equal, and "survival" is a very poor and quite doomed one. "Success" is not much better. "Defiance" is better than either, and "Virtue" better still.

This is one of the major reasons why I don't think Rationalism is actually a workable approach to cognition; it doesn't seem to encourage the sort of gambles that life requires

After the fall of Sam Bankman-Fried, people were criticizing rationalism/EA for the exact opposite reason, i.e., that it encouraged him to take a gamble and risk major losses just because the expected value was positive, and that without rationalism/EA he would have been more risk-averse.

Stupid, illegal bets with other peoples' money != doing the right thing even if the evidence indicates it's going to cost you dearly. The arguments I saw about SBF's gambles rather underscored the point: I recall people claiming that the fraud made sense by EA principles, because even though he and his business got burned, he donated a lot of money first (apologies if this is misrepresenting the arguments, but it's my basic recollection). This is very, very far from anything I would recognize as "doing the right thing because it's right, even at significant cost, even with no reasonable expectation of a payoff." For starters, it's the difference between accepting hardship and inflicting hardship on others. I can see how hardcore utilitarians might disagree, but that's one of the reasons I'm not a utilitarian.

I have a family, so that's a couple-dozen people right there. I have a church, which is upwards of a thousand more. I have a state and, at least nominally, a political party, and finally a tribe. All of these can be encouraged, strengthened, grown, built-up, in ways small and large. The best way to avoid the problems of atomic individualism is to not be an atomic individualist.

Will any of these groups stand with you if you go against larger society? I've found not only will they not, but the opposite is true. Family is not support but control and hostages; if your family cannot directly coerce you, you will be coerced into going along by implicit or explicit threats of harm to them if they continue (e.g. if you lose your job how will you support them?). Other organizations will warn you not to make trouble because it reflects on them, and expel you if you continue regardless. They may claim to support your position but in fact they will tell you it's not worth it to fight any particular battle. And of course they're right, because the juggernaut state can crush them as easily as it can crush you.

You can 'solve' the problem of atomic individualism by not being an atomic individualist. But that just replaces it with the problem of being a collectivist, which is that nobody gets a say except the head of an independently-powerful faction.

Will any of these groups stand with you if you go against larger society?

Yes, they will.

e.g. if you lose your job how will you support them?

I'll get a different job. In the meantime, my parents and siblings, and my wife's, and members of our church will be happy to house us.

Other organizations will warn you not to make trouble because it reflects on them, and expel you if you continue regardless.

Some organizations will do that, definately. Not my church, I don't think, at least not for reasons I wouldn't consider valid before the fact, and hence would not engage in.

They may claim to support your position but in fact they will tell you it's not worth it to fight any particular battle. And of course they're right, because the juggernaut state can crush them as easily as it can crush you.

The crushing seems to be slowing of late, and much remains un-crushed. In any case: "If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up." And also: "The coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave but one".

What victory are you, personally, willing to accept other than one that comes at no cost to your comfort? If there's a fight and my side wins but we're stuck living with the damage long-term, I can live with that. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you are not, because long-term diminished standards of living re just another form of loss to you. Am I mistaken?

Then you get a lot more support than I have ever seen. Perhaps you are simply higher status; in any organization I have been in, the organization's needs (meaning those of the people running it) come first, second, and last.

What victory are you, personally, willing to accept other than one that comes at no cost to your comfort?

I no longer believe in victory.

If there's a fight and my side wins but we're stuck living with the damage long-term, I can live with that. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you are not, because long-term diminished standards of living re just another form of loss to you. Am I mistaken?

I could live with that as well, but your side seems mostly unwilling to fight and if they did would likely be unable to win. Those on your side in power hold to principles the other side cynically turns against them, even to the point where they enforce those principles against their own side but not the other (e.g. see the recent Supreme Court decision on the Voting Rights Act). The rest retreat believing that perhaps THIS TIME, they will not be chased... and if they are, well, there's always victory after death, as both you and Hlynka have claimed. I'm not religious and not a born Red Tribe person; I have nowhere to retreat to and I do not believe in anything after death.

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