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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   38488 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 5, 2023

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I'm not denying your observation, I actually think it's probably true though there are too many variables to control for conclusively. I also agree with you that at least some of the current charges against Trump are questionable (Stormy Daniels hush-money payment is the prime example).

Regardless, I was curious about the progeny of this apparent shift that you describe. Would it be fair to characterize the "lock her up" and "because you'd be in jail" comments as just bloviating on Trump's part? The fact that there's no evidence that Trump tried to push for any prosecution against Clinton while he was in office supports this. Even so, the fact this bloviating was such irresistible ambrosia for his base indicates it was tapping on some deep-seated desire among at least some Americans to prosecute and jail politicians from the other side. Would you agree?

At that point it's an interesting question how much we can blame this on a sort of "lab leak", a meme that went unintentionally viral.

I already said that the right started the chanting. Please speak plainly.

Sorry, I don't know which part is confusing. You described a shift in norms about how seriously the prospect of prosecuting politicians used to be treated. I was asking about what you thought contributed to this shift, including asking what you thought the popularity of the "lock her up" chant indicated (e.g. did it contribute towards causing the shift or is it the symptom of something else? etc). Let me know if that makes sense.

Clearly and obviously, starting to chant shifts the norm from a world where people don't chant to a world where people chant, but nothing is seriously done. There are many many issues that live in such a state.

Then, thinking about the world of various issues that progress from "people chant, but nothing is seriously done," there is a spectrum. For some issues, most folks are perplexed as to why nothing serious is done. Perhaps it must just be corruption or whatever (e.g., they think climate change is really bad, they chant about climate change, but nothing is done, so maybe it's just a bunch of polluting companies paying off politicians to not do anything serious). For other issues, most folks think, "It would be madness if something were seriously done about these chants." Perhaps even the major journalistic outlets are filled with serious remarks from serious people saying, "It would be madness if something were seriously done about these chants... and I'm a serious person who will make sure that nothing is seriously done about these chants." I'm sure there are many other cases.

What factors lead some of these chants to become reality, while others don't? I don't know. I don't have a consistent theory here. I'm sure others in the thread will chime in, "Whether or not it serves the regime." Maybe. I don't know. What do you think?

I generally agree with your characterization. With regards to which chants become reality, I wouldn't know either. I had a recent post about why some ideas become viral which might explain some of the circumstances.

I supported Trump and argued for others to do so in 2015. One of my core arguments was that we needed to break the taboo on prosecuting politicians for their misdeeds, because too many politicians had gotten away with serious misconduct for too long. I explicitly argued that Trump getting impeached or prosecuted was a fairly likely outcome of him winning the election, and that this would be an entirely acceptable outcome due to the long-term damage it would do to our current regime, not because the regime would actually start holding people accountable, but purely from heightening of the contradictions, making their hypocrisy evident.

So yes, I absolutely think Trump arguing for prosecution of Clinton has had a direct impact on making his prosecution more likely.

Do you think that the contradictions are, in fact, heightened? That his prosecution is not the predetermined outcome of an impartial process, but very clearly "manipulation of procedural outcomes"?

I think I understand but not completely, what "contradictions" are you referring to? It seems that you're saying Trump's inevitable impeachment would be a good thing insofar as it would highlight how normally permissive the regime is about prosecuting politicians?

I think I understand but not completely, what "contradictions" are you referring to? It seems that you're saying Trump's inevitable impeachment would be a good thing insofar as it would highlight how normally permissive the regime is about prosecuting politicians?

The contradiction I'm pointing to is between the standard applied to an establishment politician, versus the standard applied to an outsider or populist politician. The prosecutions against Trump and his associates can be compared to the passes given to establishment creatures of either party over the last thirty or forty years. Is that clear enough, or are specific examples needed?

I understood this much better after reading the paragraph from your 2016 comment, which I actually agree with completely. I concur there is a glaring hypocrisy with how political leaders get a free pass, in line with a long-standing complaint of mine. That Trump could serve as the mirror to the system's hypocrisy is an incredibly prescient and astute observation of yours.

The only disagreement I have draws on a parallel from my work. I've said many times before that almost all my clients are not just guilty of doing the Thing, but spectacularly obvious about it. It doesn't take any effort from cops to crack the case if (HYPOTHETICALLY) it's a stabbing that occured in broad daylight in view of a dozen cameras, several dozen witnesses, and with the perpetrator yelling his own name. But despite that ridiculous advantage, I still see cops exercise little compunction about violating my clients' rights often for no real benefit, also a long-standing complaint of mine.

The two factors combined often put me in a bind where the cops may have violated my client's rights, but my client was such a dumbass in other ways that I can't do much about it. An illustrative example would be cops coaching a witness to make a false identification about an assault, but my client's well-documented alibi is that he was dealing drugs in another part of town.

That's how I feel about this Trump indictment, did he have to make it so comically easy for the system to go after him?

No offense, but did you really do so in 2015? Can you link to a post arguing that position at that point?

I'm fully prepared to believe that you did. With most other posters I'd doubt. It just sounds like the kind of claims people make with hindsight.

I was wrong, it was 2016, but pre-election. Here's an example:

Generally, he’s a giant roll of the dice. I see the trends over the last twenty years as pretty clearly negative, and while I’m not sure if we’re really in the whole yet, we’re getting there. this seems like the best time to take risks hoping for a major change in course toward something better. If the worst happens and he turns out to be legitimately, unambiguously crazy and/or evil, I have a lot of faith in the ability of a hostile political establishment to mulch him in short order. This too would be good for us, I think, in the sense that it would break the longstanding, idiotic norm in Washington of refusing to punish misbehavior and overreach by the Executive. We are long, long overdue for an actual impeachment, and if that’s the only way Trump ends up serving us, I’d still call it a win.

Amazingly prescient, wow.

Nice.

Even so, the fact this bloviating was such irresistible ambrosia for his base indicates it was tapping on some deep-seated desire among at least some Americans to prosecute and jail politicians from the other side. Would you agree?

Obviously. Also it's fun to say "Lock Her Up!" It's a good chant. But Trump did nothing to actually lock her up, so none of that justifies actual legal moves against Trump by Democrats in power.

none of that justifies actual legal moves against Trump by Democrats in power.

Sure, I never said otherwise. Assuming the shift @ControlsFreak describes is real, I was curious about how it came about. Would you agree that the frequency of the chant contributed something to moving the overton window?

Would you agree that the frequency of the chant contributed something to moving the overton window?

No, I do not believe the chant moved the overton window towards making prosecution of one's political enemies acceptable at all.

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