This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
The universality of the human condition, I guess. If I consider it unjustified to act a certain way in one situation, changing one minor parameter should not change my opinion. Take one's own experience: I find it difficult to think of an analoguous situation where I would react with such pettyness. Eg, if my male friend confesses he's gay and proposes to have sex with me, it's going to make the friendship weird for a while to say the least, but shunning him and telling everyone he's a piece of shit? Unjustified.
No, I would hope you'd be kinder than that to your friend, but you'd probably tell him "Dude, what the fuck?"
Random classmate you've been chatty with who suddenly asks if you'd like to be his fuck buddy? I would not blame you for telling him to back the hell off, or for telling your other friends what a weirdo he is. Is that different from "shunning him and telling everyone he's a piece of shit"? That's going to be largely a matter of perspective. Apparently you think this girl's only appropriate response was a polite "No thank you" and then pretend it never happened. I think you are putting an unreasonable expectation on her. She's not only supposed to not take offense, but also not mention it because it might be embarrassing to poor OP.
Why would I be softer on her than I would be on myself? Have you seen Dogville ? It toes the line to unwatchable arthouse crap, but the ending is cool.
From a higher vantage point, I don't view maintaining the current social order, where legible propositions and social awkwardness are harshly punished, as moral. Especially when there is no legitimate answer to his conundrum, according to its proponents. When me and the gang suggest the more viable way, physical escalation, it's also worthy of condemnation. That means to them his desires are immoral in themselves, and I won't accept that.
I haven't seen Dogville or even heard of it, so I don't get the reference, sorry.
I think we disagree on what constitutes "punishment." Being laughed at is punishment. Being labeled a creep is punishment. Being shunned and made a pariah is punishment. Academic sanctions are punishment. Being charged with a crime is punishment. An awkward proposition will generally result in a "punishment" somewhere on that spectrum, and while we obviously agree that sanctions and charges are too severe, you apparently believe that anything worse than embarrassed giggling (and maybe even that) is too harsh.
Nonsense.
It would have been entirely appropriate for him to just ask her out, and I'd agree completely that the worst he should suffer for that is a potentially embarrassing rejection.
"I don't want to date her, I just want to fuck her" is certainly a desire you can have, but having a desire doesn't mean it needs to be socially acceptable to express it.
It's Nicole Kidman being horribly mistreated by some villagers for 2 hours even though she shows them nothing but kindness. Spoilers : She keeps finding excuses for them, it gets worse and worse. She's beaten, tortured, raped and enslaved. And still, she is generous and strong, deploring the poor circumstances, etc, that made them do it. She can’t really understand why, she would never do this herself, but they must have a reason. In the end she realizes she wasn't being fair to them. She was arrogant, treating them as so far below her, not with the respect due a fellow human capable of making moral decisions. So she has them all executed. The End.
I don’t think that is the source of our disagreement. You say a (small) moral trespassing happened, or perhaps it was against something else, social norms, whatever you want to call it. This deserves punishment, and we are debating what the appropriate punishment should be. You think what happened , being labeled an immoral creep, is appropriate, I think it should be less. Ideally zero, because I don’t recognize what he did as an immoral action. The moral value of what she did after he acted is a different moral question.
But as you know, that is not equivalent to what he truly wanted. The man wanted pizza.
Not necessarily, but in this case it’s a very common one, and it could often save time and headache, were it more widely expressed. And anyway, even if it was some awful desire, I have a hard time condemning people for just telling the truth.
Not quite true. I don't think what he did was immoral, precisely. But it was creepy and offensive, and she took offense.
I don't think he should be "labeled an immoral creep." He probably isn't an immoral creep, he's just a socially obtuse dumbass.
What I'm saying is that sometimes you fuck up and you suffer for it, and you may not think it's "fair," but it's an expected consequence. The only way he could avoid suffering is if the girl he insulted is extraordinarily charitable and forgiving (i.e., she should make sure his feelings aren't hurt and she never mentions what he did). It would nice of her to do that, but I don't think it's a reasonable obligation on her part.
I guess? I do not personally have a high opinion of "hookup culture" and I'm not even a social conservative, so I'm dubious that normalizing "Hey, I think you're fuckable, wanna fuck?" would make sex relations better.
"I'm really into fisting and threesomes and heavy S&M, how about it?"
There are desires that require a lot more work to establish a relationship such that it's appropriate to express them. "Wanna fuck?" is obviously not as extreme as the above example, but it's on that spectrum.
You're considering the wrong alternative. It's not chastity vs hookup culture. It's hookup culture with words vs hookup culture with sticks (physical moves).
I’m sorry to have to resort to this, the biggest cliché in the dumpster fires that are the relationship subs, but Communication Is Key. Ideally, it’s better when things are verbalized, instead of pushed.
And since apparently it’s movie night, I’d like to present When Harry met Sally as an example. Now Harry is a bit smoother than our unfortunate study guy, although his line ‘empirically, you are attractive’ is just as dorky and immediately recongized as a-come on by sally, who is annoyed, but quickly tells him to ‘let it lie’. He repeats his come-on even more explicitly by suggesting a motel, and she turns him down again, no big drama. They proceed to banter about their life philosophies the rest of the way. Who thinks Harry is the unbelievably stupid socially retarded biggest loser ever?
I’d like to point out that Harry’s come-on actually does reflect badly on his character (from a normal monogamous perspective) and hers, because Sally is Harry’s girlfriend’s friend. But I don’t think Sally’s behaviour is 'extraordinarily charitable and forgiving', even though she has far more cause for outrage. Once upon a time, women could be trusted to handle such ‘insults’ and not take offense, and I think it’s a better model for everyone than the extreme coddling/hardcore PUA dichotomous model we have now.
But I've never disagreed with this. I think if what you want is a fuck buddy, not a date or a "relationship," you should absolutely be honest about that, and it should be okay to express that.
That does not absolve you of any obligation to, using another dumpster fire of a cliche, "read the room." Just because you are looking for a fuck buddy, or you happen to think your cute female classmate would be a good one, does not mean that appropriate communication consists of telling whichever girl you're interested in that you'd like to fuck her. Part of communication is making some attempt to gauge interest, mutual attraction, and receptiveness.
Now, this guy might have made a good faith effort to do that and he just catastrophically misread the signals. Which is why I am not like the folks on reddit who believe he's a creepy predator who should feel ashamed of himself for wanting to fuck his classmate.
But I also think some embarrassment is just par for the course when you screw up like that.
Your Harry met Sally example, besides being based on a Hollywood movie where the characters are Billy Crystal and Meg Ryan, is also not how things universally were. In the past, a woman propositioned by her girlfriend's boyfriend certainly could be expected to take offense (and very likely tell her girlfriend!). This didn't happen to Harry because Harry is Billy Crystal and Sally is Meg Ryan and Hollywood says they're meant to end up together anyway. I do not think the social norms you are suggesting - "a woman asked by a casual acquaintance if she'd like to fuck just politely declines and never takes offense" - were ever actual social norms.
Unlike communication, which can help sometimes, this is legitimately a completely useless piece of advice and judgment. 'if she said no, you shouldn't have asked'. Certainty is not achievable. Apparently, uncertainty is wanted, so punishing error is downright immoral.
Sally's reaction jives with my own thought experiment about a gay friend, and lesbians and gays among themselves. It's certainly not inconceivable that a woman would react like that, as you imply.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Sure, because a straight guy being propositioned by gay friend is embarassing for both parties. Even if you shunned him you wouldn't want to tell anyone about it because doing so would harm you as much as him. The same doesn't apply with men and women.
Turning down gay sex doesn't harm you, you should absolutely let women you want to sleep with find out - an open invitation to have sex makes you more sexually desirable through peer pressure and fomo mechanics, even from a gay guy to a straight guy. You might take a hit to your status with guys, but not much of one these days.
I've heard from some women that a bi man or a straight man who has had sex with men is less attractive to them than one who hasn't had sex with men, all else being equal. Obviously the opposite tends not to be true for women who've had sex with women. A gay man propositioning you is obviously different from having sex with you, but I wonder if there would be some effect here in the same direction. I never delved deeply into why these women felt this way about men who had sex with men, so I have little clue on the underlying mechanism.
Maybe in more traditional and conservative cultures, but in my experience in typical modern liberal environments it just raises your status.
I have gotten the same impression from women about bi guys though. Some of them are fine with it, but many seem like they put bi guys below gay guys in the list of dating prospects. My cousin said she felt betrayed when her boyfriend told her he was bi, which I kind of get. They stayed together for a few more months though.
More options
Context Copy link
Presumably that since it's easier to have gay sex than seducing women, men who chose to have gay sex over seducing women did so out of desperation.
Conversely, women are more attracted to men who have a history of seducing women.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link