site banner
ymeskhout  1yr ago (text post)   Edited 1yr ago   2721 thread views

The Bailey Podcast E031: We Say Gay

Listen on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Podcasts, Podcast Addict, and RSS.

In this episode, we discuss gayness.

Participants: Yassine, TracingWoodgrains, Sultan, Shakesneer.

Links:

Ezra Klein Interviews Dan Savage (New York Times)

Stonewall: A Butch Too Far (An Historian Goes to the Movies)

Mattachine Society (Wikipedia)

3 Differences Between the Terms 'Gay' and 'Queer' (Everyday Feminism)

Exploring HIV Transmission Rates (Healthline)

Boys Beware (PBS)

Recorded 2023-02-02 | Uploaded 2023-02-28

19
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Someone in the episoded noted how they felt that as a young gay they knew they needed to not be open about it, keep things hidden. I found this a little jarring because I felt the same as a straight youth - any expression of sexuality seemed taboo to me. Obviously there are circumstances where being gay makes that that instinct more meaningful but maybe it's not quite the dividing line it was presented as?

Fun episode as always!

Lots to think about

I listened to the Dan Savage interview, and while I generally liked it I bristled when he equated "incel" with "violent misogynist"

Then I remembered that few people know about the research on incels. In particular, I would recommend this stellar interview of William Costello on the Dissenter podcast: https://youtube.com/watch?v=-zq3wgE6NpY

I found it nuanced, empathetic and incredibly information-rich

Learned of the Mattachine Society earlier this morning, while reading James Kirchick’s Secret City: The Hidden History of Gay Washington. Really enjoying the book.

Big fan of Kirchick and Secret City. In my personal experience I find it entertaining how it's a quiet but open secret that a large amount of Republican hill offices are staffed by gay men. The happy hours they do are quite lively.

A fascinating episode, and worth listening to. It taught me much. Thank you all for your honesty; I understand my dead uncle, a bisexual creative more at home in bustling New York than in quaint Albuquerque, a lot better now. (He died of AIDS in the 80’s.)

Regarding the ideas surrounding “conversion therapy” and “born this way” in general, not specifically gayness or sexuality:

I’ve successfully used the Fourth Step (of the famous Twelve Step recovery method) to process and resolve a great number of my hurts, habits, and hang-ups. It is the only successful method I’ve found for editing my own subconscious, and it has allowed me to eliminate many of my self-destructive and otherwise unwanted behaviors in my pursuit of being a better me.

Having seen how malleable my own psyche is, and how changeable my understanding of myself is from epiphany to epiphany, I find myself frustrated at people who don’t even try to resolve their own shit before it hurts other people. I believe “born this way” in general is a lie our emotions tell us to cope with not having a theory of mind which can describe where emotions come from or how they function.

Emotions are the least consistent part of man, and the most removed from reality of all man’s components. All emotions (pathological or not, positive or not) insist they are eternal and uncreated, true and perfectly valid, up until the very moment they’re resolved and burst like a bubble, with little left to show they were ever there.

A fascinating episode, and worth listening to. It taught me much. Thank you all for your honesty; I understand my dead uncle, a bisexual creative more at home in bustling New York than in quaint Albuquerque, a lot better now. (He died of AIDS in the 80’s.)

Thank you! What about your late uncle do you feel that you better understand now?

The constant, passionate needs he had, the encouragement and sharing of such proclivity among creatives, the always-on nature of ambition and how it intertwines with those passions. The closest “straight” analogue I know is how powerful political men need to have lovers constantly, like Bill Clinton.

Seeing past the squick is difficult when there used to be a death sentence hanging above it. When monkeypox was spreading through the men-who-orgy community, it was impossible for me to see how just not having sex for a week was never going to happen. Now, it’s obvious why not: it’s a cultural everyday event in their world, and such meaning is invested in fulfilling one’s sex drive that going without is as painful as me going without food for a day.

Emotions are the least consistent part of man, and the most removed from reality of all man’s components. All emotions (pathological or not, positive or not) insist they are eternal and uncreated, true and perfectly valid, up until the very moment they’re resolved and burst like a bubble, with little left to show they were ever there.

Isn't that merely indicative of their strength? 'We have always been at war with Eastasia' is not a statement weak governments produce. The fleeting yet totalitising nature of our emotions shows both their immediately unyielding face, and also the purpose that such a front, quite unknown to their host in the moment, is designed for.

The closest parallel I can think of is the confidence trickstering of credit instruments, best illustrated by old fashioned gold-backed systems: "Of course we have enough gold for you, sir." Being able to put a the maximum possible energy into effect by agitating a pre-existing body with the minimum of initial impetus—that's what emotions are, and they do their job very well, however unpleasant being their vessel is.

The person referred to in the latter half of the episode as being a very active transmitter of AIDS was probably Gaetan Dugas.

The Wikipedia article on Dugas manages very artfully to gloss over the 'disgusting' aspect of his story by 'debunking' a theory that Dugas was the person who introduced AIDS to America/various cities. And under that debunking sweep the very insidious nature of a person that allegedly intentionally spread a deadly contagious disease, even if he wasn't the first one.

"I've got gay cancer, I'm going to die and so are you" He is reported to have said after sex. Not my idea of pillow talk.

Tbh if a woman (or anyone really) told me this after sex I'd probably strangle them to death right then and there. How did this man go on for so long doing what he did without getting minecrafted?

It was in San Francisco, no? I'd imagine a gay man in SF in the 70's/80's was probably not the kind of person who could even think of throwing a punch, let alone going full Greco-Roman (and not just in that way, obviously) on someone in the bedroom.

I mean, you do that with dozens or hundreds of guys, and you might find one pissed-off guy who decides to choose violence.

Soundcloud only has episodes 28 and 29.

Am I missing something?

No, someone else pointed this out. I'll need to get that and Stitcher fixed but meanwhile the other places should work.

Found it on spotify... It was an interesting episode, I'll definitely check out more!

Might read a transcript; not spending an hour listening without a hell of a better submission statement.

Stitcher feed hasn't been updating for some reason but I'll try to get it fixed. Please let me know of any other technical difficulties.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats