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naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
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Notes -
How did you come to this level of faith? I admire that, but I have no idea how to find it. Every church I look at seems to be institutionally sick, or worse. For example: Catholicism is the (lapsed) faith of my family, but all I see of the Catholic Church is a deeply sick organization more interested in suppressing the one area of growth among young people (Latin Mass), deeply divided about how to worship. The Anglicans (or maybe only the English Anglicans?) are navel-gazing about whether God the Father is actually God the Non-Binary, and so on.
I'm also interested in hearing from Catholics (particular TLM Catholics) about how they reconcile belonging to a church that seems to hate its own faithful so much. I can't figure it out.
I grew up Catholic, attended mass regularly (though not every week), CCD, was a Eucharistic Minister when I got older, regularly got suckered in to volunteering for whatever events the church was having, and I ended up going to a Catholic college, not one like Georgetown or Notre Dame, but one where the majority of students were Catholic and there was an associated seminary and half the professors were monks and religion courses were required curriculum and multiple friends of mine ended up becoming priests. And during this time I hadn't really heard of Traditional Catholics. I think I first heard of them from an article I read online, which may have been around this time period, but it certainly wasn't anything that was discussed or even mentioned within the church or among fellow Catholics. To the contrary, Vatican II was celebrated by pretty much every priest I had known by that point, and the Latin Mass was viewed as a boring, impenetrable relic that had survived a couple hundred years past its sell-by date among pretty much everyone who had been around while it was still in use. No one, no matter how old or how devout, seemed to harbor any nostalgia for the Traditional Rite. At the most, there was curiosity about it among some younger people, but just that they wanted to participate in one on occasion, not that they wanted it to supplant normal mass. If you grew up in a household that was nominally Catholic but lapsed, and don't have any first-hand experience really living as a Catholic, it's easy to read new articles about Traditional Catholics or see them arguing online and think that this is some kind of deep division in the church, but most practicing Catholics probably have no idea what you're talking about.
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The most hardcore justify it easily: the true Church was hijacked by Satan 60 years ago, popes since Vatican II are impostors.
This is logically consistent position - how could true and infallible church suddenly turn around by 180 degrees, condemn what it always preached and preach what it always condemned?
By coincidence, the communists had the same problem at the same time.
The problem with this position is, when the devil captured the whole church for 60 years and fooled 99.99% of believers with no end in sight, it really looks that gates of Hell prevailed and promise given to Peter was false.
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I mean, I don't think that the church does hate its faithful. I think that anyone who does say that is failing very badly at understanding the Church's position. Basically, the Pope is concerned about the TLM dividing the faithful into "us vs them" camps. And to be perfectly honest, in my very limited experience I understand the worry. On /r/catholicism you can't go a single thread about the TLM without seeing people go off on things like:
the Pope hates reverent worship and is borderline heretical
TLM rules, Novus Ordo drools, why does anyone bother going to NO mass because it's objectively inferior
We should abolish receiving communion in the hand, go back to receiving on the tongue and communion rails only
And so on. Granted, the loudest voices on one particular internet forum are not representative of the whole by any means. But at least anecdotally it sure seems to me like Francis' concerns about the TLM being a cause of division in the Church have merit. I have no issue whatsoever with the TLM being available for those who like it. But when I see its advocates telling me that the mass I prefer is bad and that the practices I prefer should be stopped, I find it hard to have much sympathy when the Pope says "OK we're reining this in".
That's one perspective, but the other perspective is that the Pope is essentially saying "You TLM people are dividing the Church! Don't be dividers! Instead please compromise by giving up all the things you want. What's that you say about liturgical abuses and hippy guitar masses? Lalalalalalaaa I can't hear you!! Quit being so hateful and divisive!!"
Division in the church is definitely a cause for concern, but ramming the almost-everywhere-degraded NO down everyone's throat (seriously, for everyone 1 reverent NO parish I've been to, I've been to 4 irreverent NO parishes) while ignoring the genuine concerns of the TLM/tradcath crowd is an even surer way to cause division. As much as I hate to say it, I think that the Pope reads Vatican II's docs using a "hermeneutic of rupture" and wants the new Mass to replace instead evolve from the old Mass.
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A formerly nondenominational family church which tops out at the Dunbar Number of 150ish. My parents insisted we tithe our allowance, $1 out of our $10/week.
As to why I didn’t fall away like most in my generation, I got roped into doing the bulletins and the sound board in my twenties in the 00’s, and stuck around miserably until a Sunday school teacher with fire in his heart joined and started challenging our minds.
I’ve resolved the old wounds people inadvertently but inevitably gave me, and now I’m actually happy to be there. I’m now the lyrics projection technician too, and one of three Zoom gurus since the pandemic lockdowns. (We didn’t miss a single Sunday.)
PM me if you want to visit his Zoom class on “Engaging and Influencing the Culture” on Wednesday nights. Guests are always welcome.
What exactly did he do? I have a similar position in my own church and am doing a terrible job at it.
He summarized an apologetics book’s most salient and piercing points as his class material, with illustrations in his PowerPoints, and has a particular method of “fill-in-the-blank” worksheets to hammer home the points. I’ll PM you his class recordings.
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