site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   33253 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 20, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

15
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Why artsy people are mostly on the left is probably rooted in psychology- they’re almost by definition people who choose self expression in the face of conventionality, which is left wing nearly tautologically.

Conventionality is currently left wing. You can't express yourself in its face and be left wing, then you are expressing yourself as its face. Caitlyn Jenner bravely being applauded and fawned over.

There is room on the right for all types, but 20 years of left wing propaganda made people think the only people who belong on the right are Mormons, racists and idiots. It's definitely one of their best memes, evidenced by it being believed not only by the left, moderates and normies, but even by many right wingers - even though it does nothing but fuck the right. But it is just a meme.

Conventionality is currently left wing.

Yes, and conversely, libertarianism is currently right wing. Hence the art world's complete identity crisis and breakdown over the past few years which I see as mainly a fracture between the elite old school liberal donor/patron class and the broke creatives who actually make art.

The enemy must be both strong and weak, huh?

Or I guess the modern version is that they’re “so controversial, yet so brave.”

The enemy must be both strong and weak, huh?

This phrase seems to function as a thought-terminating cliché.

All enemies have both strengths and weaknesses, relatively speaking, and it behooves one to have a full appreciation of both if conflict seems likely. There is no assessment of relative strengths and weaknesses, in any context, on any side, that you cannot apply your criticism to. It is fully general, hence either useless or dishonest due to selective application.

Is there not a tension between portraying leftists as conventional and as dangerous radicals? Their hold on the mainstream must be treated as a serious threat—but also “just a meme.”

Is there not a tension between portraying leftists as conventional and as dangerous radicals?

"Convention" as in "Consensus", "Law", "Guideline", "Policy", not "Tradition". You might argue that this is imprecision in language, but language is, unfortunately, imprecise. Note the "Currently", which states that this is a convention of the present. So no, this doesn't seem to me to be a colorable argument.

Their hold on the mainstream must be treated as a serious threat—but also “just a meme.”

Rwandan racial grievances and the Blood Libel are other examples of mere memes that are nevertheless serious threats, and other examples (Marxism, Protestantism, Christianity, "this random guy is actually the legitimate heir to the throne", &etc) abound. Ideas are dangerous, in the strictest and most concrete sense. Memes motivate, and of the means-motive-opportunity trio, motive is the most important.

I'm aware that the cliché in question has a pedigree, but I'm struggling to actually think of a single case where its use is straightforwardly both applicable and productive. I think this is just another of those academic "insights" sustained by a complete lack of rigor in their native environment.

No, they are just strong. They leverage minority groups for their own gain, and then discard them when they are no longer considered weak enough to garner enough sympathy to provide cover for their power grabs. I don't consider left wingers my enemy though, the vast majority of the left are just trying to do the right thing, and we disagree about the methods but not the goal - a happy, stable, free society. I do consider them co-opted by tyrants and sociopaths however, who I do consider my enemy, and I think that the current ideology dominating the left is partly to blame, because it makes it easier for those types to get ahead.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats