The Wednesday Wellness threads are meant to encourage users to ask for and provide advice and motivation to improve their lives. It isn't intended as a 'containment thread' and any content which could go here could instead be posted in its own thread. You could post:
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I'm a lurker, posting here because I'm struggling with a big issue of belief, faith, etc. I just needed to get this stuff out there, if anyone has any comments. I am even, truthfully, open to evangelization or proselytization -- and quite honestly, the weirder the better if you're going to offer up something. I will state that my religion of origin is Christianity, and I am doubtless formed by this. But ultimately I'm tired of this faith, I find the inter-denominational fights tiresome and useless, I have found each of the Christian sects (and I have explored more of them than most have ever even heard the name of) troublesome in certain ways, and would much rather look beyond the religion of the Nazarene if I were to adopt a new faith.
This is going to be a very stream-of consciousness diatribe, because that's what it was originally. I apologize for any uncharity towards anyone, and I ask for leniency because these issues seriously trouble me. I mean everything I write sincerely, not in a vicious or cruel way, but in an honest, open, and vulnerable way. I present them as true and necessary in the Victorian Sufi Buddha lite system, because they are true about my mental state and necessary for me to express in order to hopefully get help on that mental state. I make no warranties about their truth value relative to the world as it is, only that they fairly represent my feelings and are necessary to present in order to gain the most helpful feedback.
I'm a religious person but lately I've been losing my faith. I lost my faith in my youth but it didn't have this big of an impact on me then; after it returned and I lost it recently, it's been a big issue, a soul-rending, terrifying issue. Ultimately I've realized my problem with living without faith isn't about the supernatural but about ethics.
The big heart of my issue is moral certainty. I feel like we’re in a time of tremendous moral uncertainty and have been for at least a hundred years. I just want to be grounded in something greater than the whims of the present, to be solidly connected to something that might survive the values shift that’s going on. Something that doesn’t require me to say that everyone who lived more than 60 years ago was irredeemably evil, and that perhaps things that will someday be considered morally obligatory are not. A stance, perhaps even a tradition, that can survive the coming apocalypse. A true ark.
Something that affirms the significance of the human person above and beyond other species, something that says a human being, no matter how dull or how evil, is more significant than a dog. Something that says that a canine is not a "furbaby," and a child is much more significant than a pet.
And further, something that affirms that sexuality is real and significant and important, not something that should be wantonly thrown about or abused casually. Something that says sex with a committed partner is morally better than a one-night-stand. (I'm asking for a lot with this one.)
Something that says veganism is not morally obligatory. Some factory farming practices may be unnecessarily cruel, but I want something which says that the bare fact of raising and killing animals for meat or using them for eggs or milk is not intrinsically immoral.
Something that says that some forms of nationalism or patriotism are organic and valuable — that a positive nationalism, which values the positive and life-affirming aspects of one’s history and culture, is good and healthy and to be expected in a well-adjusted person. And conversely, that unhealthy nationalism, which seeks to oppress and trample over others in the name of one’s nation, is wrong. Something that says borders are real, but that ethnic supremacism is wrong.
Something, perhaps, if I’m optimistic, that offers a good answer to the abortion question.
There are all sorts of moral questions that are undecided in society. I want something that can give me a good answer to those questions, in continuity with people in the past who provided good answers to that question. I want to have an answer that rests on something greater than what I am accustomed to or am biased towards, and which someone who lived 500 years ago would at least find intelligible, even if they disagreed with it.
I’ve come to realize that answers to these questions is the real attraction to religion that I have. But I’m open to any reasonable answer.
"Most people seem to agree with something” is not a good enough answer for me. “Most people” have once upon a time agreed on things that “most people” today find utterly repugnant. I want something that can give me an answer based on something far greater than that. It seems as though we have no moral mooring and all of society is being drug along to accept whatever the people who currently have power in society think is right. And I think it may well have always been so.
But I want to believe in something deeper and richer than that. I want to believe that there is a greater moral purpose in life other than “follow the leaders, peasant,” or “look out for one’s own.” Because otherwise I have no grounding on which to base any of my judgments at all.
Like many, but certainly not all, who post on this forum, I am not a fan of the political persuasion commonly known as "wokeness." But if I have no grounds on which to object -- if I have no objective moral school from which to ground my rejection of this system of beliefs -- then I might as well become the wokest wokester who ever woked, as that might at least work to my benefit, or at the very least spare me the anguish of watching all of society adopt a group of beliefs I reject.
(This is perhaps a "selfawarewolves" moment, and I brace for the possibility that those who disagree with me might use this to mock or belittle me.)
Basically, I feel deeply morally uncertain and profoundly troubled. I don’t know what to believe about anything, even the things I feel strongly about. Because my feelings are not a relevant ground on which to base a moral judgment.
When Christians say to atheists, “what do you base your morality on?” I think the atheists often misinterpret the question. It’s not an attack, it’s a lament. Or at least it is to me. I wish to God I could have the moral certainty of an atheist I once met who publicly pronounced she wished Hell existed so Donald Trump could go there -- this is not a joke, this is an actual thing I once heard. This is a statement that even the most devout Christians would hesitate to make about their enemies in this day and age.
I think the old "where do you get your morals from" is interpreted as an attack because most people, even most atheists, haven’t taken the time to ponder the vacuousness of most moral judgments, even those made by political liberals about political conservatives like Trump. I think most atheists haven't pondered that the same chain of logic which leads them to reject theism would just as easily lead them to reject ethical realism. Most people believe what they've been taught, and do not question it.
I want something that is not vacuous, and I want it quickly. I don’t know how much longer I can stand feeling utterly unmoored to anything, because I feel like it's eating me alive.
So, anyway, proselytize to me, sell me your belief system. Beyond the realm of religion, I am also interested in various moral theories and would be open to hearing yours. I am uncomfortable with pure act utilitarianism, particularly because, on such a view, organic relationships between friends and family members don't weigh more than one's obligations to strangers (all pleasure and suffering being equal), but I would be interested in other forms of consequentialism that don't eschew the moral preference towards such relationships, or deontology, if that's your thing.
I'm sorry you're feeling troubled, spiritually adrift, morally uncertain, etc. I think these experiences the core issue. There may be a variety of solutions (religion, philosophy, exercise, meditation, a deep and abiding acceptance of these experiences as okay, diligent safe use of psychedelics, finding a group with common
interests).
Secular Buddhism and meditation suit me just fine, but I'm not sure if these would work for you. I have been heavily influenced by the works of David Loy (in particular Lack and Transcendence), as well as various meditation retreats. This epistemic universe attracts a disproportionate amount of wokies, lefties, and nonsense woo-woo. However, these things are not inherent to the philosophy or practice, and can be ignored/accepted with some effort. Buddhism and meditation are about not losing the balance of the mind in any situation. They seek to solve/dissolve existential angst and/or moral uncertainty by accepting them without becoming mentally or emotionally perturbed. For moral philosophy I've been influenced by Sam Harris (in particular The Moral Landscape, as well as Waking Up: A guide to spirituality without religion). As I said, these may not be a good fit for you, but I think they're neat. Importantly, they focus on reducing the experience of suffering, including feeling troubled by moral uncertainty. It's the journey to realizing you never needed an ark, or answers; of accepting being lost at sea, of being at peace with the fact that we all eventually deteriorate into worm food. The Waking Up meditation app is free if you ask. I've never used it, but I hear good things.
There are some contradictions or paradoxes in your post. I'm not criticising you personally. On the one hand you feel morally uncertain. However, you appear to be asking for moral reassurance to questions for which you already have rigid answers. You feel strongly about things, but are not sure if you believe them. You want something deep and rich, but you want it quickly. Ultimately, this is all fine. So long as it gets you looking for a solution to how troubled you feel. You may want to talk to various mainstream spiritual teachers. I think priests, pastors, and the like are open to talking with members outside their flock. Also, there are Unitarian churches which takes all manner of spiritual seekers, from atheists to Mormons. At a minimum, you could talk to a half dozen or so such people. I think you'll reap and immediate benefit of getting some stuff off your chest, and you may find the next step.
As as I said at the beginning, I think worrying about all this stuff to the point where it's eating you up is the core issue. I don't want you to feel this way for any longer than is necessary. Talk to some people. Try some new things. Best wishes on finding what's best for you.
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Have you read much ancient philosophy? I was not prepared for how practical much of it is, centered as it is on the exact kinds of questions you are asking. Humans thousands of years ago wrestled with the exact same feelings and came up with some compelling answers. Best of all, they all competed for followers, so they wrote to be persuasive, and you can decide what seems most correct to you. For me, it ended up being Stoicism, but there are plenty of others, from Cynicism to Epicuriansim.
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If you're looking for a religion, you fundamentally need one that not just teaches correct morality but is also true. There are a few reasons for this--it's impossible to back up morality without relying on truth, truth leads to good morality, believing in a lie is not moral--but I hope that the statement itself just rings true to you. You don't want to deliberately choose to believe in a lie, right?
So, given that, anything we sell you will be insufficient, and you will have to find the truth of it for yourself. I think philosophy can lead towards the truth, but at the end of the day it's hard to tell whether a given moral system truly "works" without "seeing its fruits" so to speak.
I could try to sell you my religion (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) but I think there are some more important principles that are worth discussing here. Why are we in this situation to begin with? Why does everyone not agree on morality? Alma 32 says:
In other words, with knowledge comes responsibility and accountability, so God will only give us the knowledge that we are ready for, as quickly as we are ready for it. Let me be clear here that by "knowledge" I mean "evidence"--knowing what the will of God theoretically could be is very different from knowing the will of God.
The rest of the chapter goes on to explain what is, in my opinion, the best method for finding the truth of these things, and I encourage you to read it. I'd share more detail, but honestly I'm pretty bad at starting from the beginning in these matters, so I'd give you an enormous rambling sermon rather than anything useful. I hope the chapter helps.
Haha I was reading the bullet points and my missionary brain just suddenly came surging back into full force, like that's a bingo. /u/Questioner1, you could always reach out to local missionaries in your area (google it, shouldn't be too hard to find an online chat to hook you up) - you can shoot the breeze with them, ask them whatever you want, if you grow tired of it you can tell them to get lost - might meet some interesting young people from who knows where.
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I'm an atheist, with a protestant background, so I am not going to be much help in suggesting a religion for you. But I will observe that it seems you want two somewhat contradictory things: (1) a faith that affirms things you already believe and does not prescribe anything you don't believe in; (2) a faith that will provide you with moral certainty about right and wrong.
Somewhat cynically, I see this taking you in the direction of most religious believers, where you embrace a religion and adapt it to your beliefs rather than the other way around. Hence liberal Christians who are certain that Jesus was woke, and conservative Christians who are certain he was not. Or in the example I mentioned in the Brandon Sanderson thread, woke liberal Western Muslims who somehow find a queer-friendly pro-feminist message in the words of Mohammad.
If I were really going to seriously embrace a religion as the Word of God (or some other source of absolute truth), it seems to me I would have to accept everything it teaches, even if it conflicts with my personal intuitions. I would be very suspicious of a religion that purports to be a source of moral certainty and absolute truth that just happens to coincide with all my own beliefs.
Really this depends on the more foundational stuff it teaches, no? For instance Christianity puts a lot more stock in what Jesus taught than what your pastor teaches, and you could well decide your pastor is wrong on some point because Jesus said otherwise.
Of course, it becomes a bit circular if you decide that "trust what Jesus taught" is itself a principle taught by the pastor, which is why I mention foundational (or hierarchical) beliefs. "Listen to Jesus" is probably a more foundational principle to the denomination than the nature of the sacrament, or whatever it is that you disagree with your pastor about.
At a certain point you do have to bite the bullet and admit that Mohammad wasn't queer-friendly, or otherwise deny your own personal intuitions, but I think doing so is less "I need to conform with the religion I have decided is true" and more "I need to resolve internal contradictions in my own beliefs." The Quran is pretty clear that homosexuality and transsexuality are bad, so once those internal contradictions are resolved, you're either left with "Mohammad was not queer-friendly" or "the Quran isn't fully correct." I don't think those people that you mentioned have even tried to resolve those contradictions--their beliefs seem (to me, on the outside) to basically just be naked status-signaling.
The issue is really that it's simply impossible for a healthy person to embrace something as absolute truth. Doubt is a good, fundamental part of human cognition, and you can't just order your brain to never doubt something just because you like it, at least while remaining mentally healthy. Even if you've decided that a given church is for you, there will still be plenty of critical thinking involved regarding how to interpret their teachings, how to prioritize them, etc. and even allowing yourself to think critically in these ways means denying that that church is 100% absolute truth.
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One thing I think would help you get better answers (not that I feel qualified to provide them necessarily) is if you explain why Christianity doesn't meet the needs you state. From my perspective, every one of the items you want can be fulfilled by basically any denomination of Christianity. Obviously you don't feel that the church is fulfilling those needs, or you wouldn't be looking elsewhere - but why not?
I think that this is important because if you don't identify where Christianity isn't working for you, nobody can really suggest an alternative with confidence that it would work better for you. Personally I'm Christian and I am ultimately going to be biased towards that, but I would at least try to give you some thoughts that don't center around the church if I knew what bothered you about it.
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