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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   34937 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023

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My viewpoint would have been that (ethically) maximizing the students' chances of passing the test should be heavily prioritized. Even if the fun stuff is better for their psyches, they're paying for a leg up on the competition.

Well, that is an unavoidable dilemma, as is the content v. skills dilemma, and breadth v depth dilemma. But, btw, I don't know that most of my students would call writing essays "fun stuff," though it is probably more fun than lots of rote memorization.

Professionally, I've only seen how the AP grades calculus, so maybe you can tell if such a thing is even possible? My own high school experience was that one wants to approximate ChatGPT's response as well as possible, which is what we'd like to avoid here.

There are obviously no scored tests yet for the new course, but scoring guidelines, sample responses, rubrics, etc for old AP World tests are here, and for old AP US History classes are here

Florida would be right to claim that the Black experience is better understood with every bell hooks reading replaced by Tupac Shakur.

Yes, Florida is free to offer or not offer whatever course it wants (and, as noted, it does in fact offer African American studies classes). But the "culture war" aspect is why Florida rejected this particular course.

But the "culture war" aspect is why Florida rejected this particular course.

Did they explicitly say that?

Yes.

Did they? Iirc, the stated motive was an apparent lack of academic rigor.

Yes. See document posted here

I did see that. It seems like criticism of the course for waging the culture war. Unless I misunderstood you, and that's what you originally meant?

But the "culture war" aspect is why Florida rejected this particular course.

Yes. It's also the reason this particular course exists.

Except that Florida high schools offer non-AP versions of the course already.

And, the course exists for one reason: to get more African American students to take AP courses.

And, the course exists for one reason: to get more African American students to take AP courses.

That sounds both very counter-productive (see Goodhart's law) and extremely condescending. Like, since they can't take AP math, so we invent AP bullshit and pretend it's the same thing. Nobody would think it's the same thing.

  1. Goodhart's law is irrelevant. I meant that the ultimate goal was to get African-American students to do better in college. The College Board's theory is that any exposure to college-level curriculum in high school helps students do better in college. They claim, "Research consistently shows that AP students are better prepared for college than students who don’t take AP, regardless of their exam score. They’re more likely to enroll and stay in college, do well in their classes, and graduate in four years." Whether that is true or not, of course, is a different question.

  2. I don't know what you mean by "inventing" AP bullshit, since colleges do offer AfAm Studies courses. And is it any more bullshit than AP Drawing? Or AP Art History?

I meant that the ultimate goal was to get African-American students to do better in college.

Is that the goal? Because if it is, it would be very easy to achieve - just award a college degree to every African American at birth, with perfect GPA. In fact, why not PhD? It doesn't cost anything. Here, mission accomplished. If, however, the mission is to actually get them prepared for college learning, in preparation for future adult life, then AP bullshit is not going to help much (unless, of course, they'd be specializing in bullshit industry, which is a billion dollar business by now - then it'd help a lot).

Research consistently shows that AP students are better prepared for college than students who don’t take AP,

That's exactly what I'd call extreme Goodharting - taking a wrong side of correlation, grabbing it and running with it. Sure, being AP student correlates with being successful. Because AP is harder, so students feeling like they can take on harder work - usually succeed more. But if you start creating bullshit APs, you aren't making the students to perform better, you are just ruining the metric. It's like saying "students getting high grades are usually successful, so if we award 100 for everyone, everyone would be maximally successful". It doesn't work this way.

since colleges do offer AfAm Studies courses.

Yup, and you can also get PhD in various bullshit. Not exactly news.

And is it any more bullshit than AP Drawing? Or AP Art History?

Sure is. Drawing at least supposed to teach you some actionable skills (I'd pay good money to somebody who would be able to teach me to draw, I am hopelessly terrible at that). Art history, done right, is a fascinating subject. Then again, AA history done right would be a fascinating subject too, but nobody would do it right any time soon, I suspect.

But if you start creating bullshit APs,

  1. That is a very strange response, since I said: "I would think, for example, that the effect of taking an AP course on future college success would depend on the course in question"

  2. You are assuming that the course will be bullshit, but as you note yourself, "AA history done right would be a fascinating subject too," so you are not claiming that there is anything inherently wrong with offering AP AA Studies, but rather that you think that this particular course will not be "do[ne] right." That might be true -- see my top post on the subject, where I express similar concerns -- but it isn't guaranteed.

Edit: Re this:

Is that the goal? Because if it is, it would be very easy to achieve - just award a college degree to every African American at birth

Maybe, but note that that is not something that the College Board has the power to do. Regardless, the fact of the matter is, if the College Board wanted to improve actual, real college-level skills of African American students, which they say they do; and if they believe that taking AP courses, even one, have that effect, which they say they do; then they would do exactly what they have done here: Take steps to get more African American students to take AP courses.

You are assuming that the course will be bullshit, but as you note yourself,

Yes I do. I mean, those are the same schools in the same system that struggle to teach people to read and write by graduation. This is the same system that graduates people who are unable to read their own diploma. What would be my confidence level that they would do such a complex and politicized subject as AA history right? Near zero. I think it's purely "the care hums and vibrates when moving, so if we get into a broken car and start humming and jumping around, it'd magically start moving again". Pure cargo cult education. Well, and of course fat paycheck to whatever graduates of AA studies that are going to be paid taxpayer money to develop such courses and even more money to perform such courses - after all, Advanced Level education can't come cheap!

Maybe, but note that that is not something that the College Board has the power to do.

You can get reasonably close. Admit every AA person and award them a degree and perfect GPA immediately. I am not sure why such a simple idea never occurred before. I blame racism.

and if they believe that taking AP courses, even one, have that effect,

That sounds to me like "why the government just won't print enough money for everyone and give it out for free?!" The obvious detachment of the correlation happens right here, where you tying to pull at the wrong side of the correlation and fake the result without providing the cause.

And in case you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe this guy: https://www.foxnews.com/media/florida-democrat-agrees-desantis-ap-african-american-history-course-i-think-its-trash

That's exactly what Goodhart's Law is for. Being an AP student seems to be a good measure, in that it appears to predict college success, so we make a target of "number of AP students" under the assumption that there's a causal relationship in this correlation (AP classes cause better college outcomes), while failing to account for other explanations like selection effects (students more likely to do well in college are more likely to take AP classes).

That is not an example of Goodhart's law. Goodhart's law is about when a measure becomes an end in itself. Here, the end is college success, not AP enrollment. What you are talking about is potential reverse causation. And, FWIW, researchers are obviously aware of selection effects and other potential confounders. Whether they successfully adjust therefor is a different question, but one can't tell without looking at the actual research, which you have not done.

And the point is not that AP enrollment actually increases college success, but rather that the College Board thinks it does (or has conveniently convinced itself that it does). My point was about the College Board's motive, not the value of the course (I would think, for example, that the effect of taking an AP course on future college success would depend on the course in question. I would hypothesize, for example, that taking AP Calculus would have a greater effect than would taking AP Art. The effect would also, I would expect, vary based on the student and school in question, including the socioeconomic and English language learner status of the student).

Goodhart's Law is

When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure

That is exactly what's happening here. "Being an AP student" is a measure, and they want to increase the thing that it measures, so they set a target of "more AP students". This will probably mean that "being an AP student" will be less useful as a predictor of future success. Because people involved, who are responsible for meeting the target, will be heavily incentivized to cut corners and take the easiest path to meeting the target.

but rather that the College Board thinks it does

Or is willing to pretend it does, etc, etc. It's still a solid example of Goodhart, unless there is rock solid reason to think that AP classes actually increase college success. Because the most likely scenario (because it's the easiest, most reliable method) is that more AP students will come from the pool of more marginal students who will do less well in college. Just like "high school graduate" no longer reliably implies basic literacy or numeracy; the easiest, most reliable way to bump the numbers for "college graduate" is just to stop having standards.

Again, the end is not "being an AP student." It is a means to the end of "success in college." The College Board is not defining "success in college" as "taking AP courses in HS" (unlike, as you note, those who define "success in high school" as "getting a diploma", which is indeed an example of Goodhart's law. It is absolutely incorrect to say, as you do, that the College Board is using "Being an AP student" as a measure of college success.

Note that I am NOT saying that offering the class is a good idea or bad idea, nor that offering the class will or will not increase student success in college, as should be clear from what I said. Either offering the course will ultimately increase AfAm students success in college, or it won't. We obviously don't know yet, and the CB might well be basing its belief on false premises. But it is clearly not an example of Goodhart's law.

Or is willing to pretend it does, etc, etc

Right, I said that: "or has conveniently convinced itself that it does")

More comments

And, the course exists for one reason: to get more African American students to take AP courses.

Is this because it is intended to be extremely non-rigorous so anyone with a pulse can get a 4 or 5?

I said take classes, not pass them. With the exception of language classes, many of which are taken by native speakers, pass rates on "softer" AP classes tend to be relatively low, precisely because more students take them.

With the exception of language classes

My school didn't even bother to offer these because, allegedly, they are nearly impossible for non-native speakers.

pass rates on "softer" AP classes tend to be relatively low, precisely because more students take them.

Interesting, that speaks to the lack of rigor of the actual class not being up to snuff for the example. APUSH was clownishly easy both on the exam and in class. We spent most of the time dicking around and discussing conspiracy theories. 100% 4/5s in that. Very much not so in Physics (basically 95% same students).

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