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ZorbaTHut  2yr ago (text post)   45552 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 5, 2022

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To my understanding this represents an escalation of the war, wherein NATO forces commanded by Nato leadership are directly involved in a major offensive for the first time.

Which NATO forces? What country of origin, which unit?

Among soldiers in the offensive there certainly are some who served in NATO militaries before, but this does not make the offensive force NATO. It’s makes as much sense as saying that it’s the Soviets who invaded Ukraine, because some soldiers in Russian force served in Soviet Union.

I don't think the "NATO forces" (that is, Western ex-military volunteers) are particularly relevant, although people on multiple sides have a weird incentive to claim that they are (for instance, the veterans themselves to talk up the significance of their "experience" and therefore personal value). In fact, I'm unconvinced that for line soldiers many things matter as much as motivation/attitude and basic discipline/impulse control, which are aspects in which I don't see why Ukrainian soldiers now should be inferior to anyone.

On the other hand, Ukraine's equipment is increasingly NATO-provided especially at the low level (I keep hearing that Ukrainian units have a fillhorn of encrypted comms and Starlink terminals while the Russians are often stuck with CB radios donated by some Telegram bloggers if they have anything at all), and I'd wager that their command-and-control stack is advised and supplied with intel by the US at every level. Given the outcome, it seems to be pretty clear to me that the conclusion should be that these things just matter more, as long as neither side outright runs out of motivated soldiers, just as I would expect a professional RTS player with an early midgame starting position to trounce a noob who doesn't know how to scroll the map viewassign unit groups even if the latter starts with a popcap-sized endgame army.

(edit: Update: The speed at which that entire stretch of the Russian front is collapsing is astonishing. Between this and "unconfirmed" (of the type that seems to wind up confirmed a day or two later all the time lately) reports of breaches even all over the Donbass, I now get the sense that this is really the beginning of a potentially very rapid end for Russia. Hope that nobody overplays their hand past the nuclear threshold.)

No. What I said makes more sense. Nato has been funding this war from the beginning. The CIA worked with Nato to establish Ukraine's independence in the first place.

But there are British and American boots on the ground, likely using mercenaries as a thin veneer of plausible deniability.

  • -27

Let me know if this is better suited for the suggestions thread, but as it stands Skylab's comment is at 20 downvotes. Is Skylab not contributing to the conversation? Not enough evidence of claims? Is TheMotte.org userbase already eagerly using downvoting as a disagree button?

Not that this necessarily applies here, but I always thought of a solution where mods could booby-trap unpopular but constructive comments - high-signal rule-conforming comments, and automatically warn or even temporarily remove voting privileges from users who downvote the tripwired comment to 'train' them. I probably would've already tripped this trap a couple times by now, fwiw. This might lead to accusations of mod-favoritism.

I'm a downvoter in this case; not sure if my motivations are generalizable but here we go.

Why downvote this particular comment?

  • It contains a fairly outrageous claim with no evidence, not even bad evidence, presented.

Why downvote any comments?

  • Comments like this reduce the value of the thread for me; stopping to consider whether it made any sense broke the flow and ultimately I discarded the claims without learning anything. A downvote is a cheap way of giving feedback (to a well intentioned writer at least) that they should consider trying a bit harder.

  • Readers are going to have varying levels of knowledge on a given topic, and varying levels of patience for reading (and evaluating) rebuttals. A big negative score will at least signal that a claim is controversial.

I would bolt from this place if any traps were set. That's a level of official hostility that I don't want to contend with.

Downvotes don't matter in the slightest here. They don't even reduce visibility. Caring too much about score is more of a problem than people just arbitrarily downvoting stuff and not following "reddiquette" (which has been a joke since the very start).

It's ridiculous to expect users not to use it as a disagree button, and downvotes come from the ether anyway. It's bad form to complain about them in any circumstance.

That said, I've never seen any opinion, no matter how absurd, receive downvotes that was even-keeled, explained coherently, and delivered with some sort of assurance that rebuttals would be taken in good faith. And anything with 2+ good links will be net positive as well.

Yes, that’s what I said: there are former NATO soldiers in the offensive. No, this does not make them NATO forces. Similarly, NATO has been funding Ukraine, sure, but it does not make NATO forces Ukrainian forces, any more than “moderate” Syrian rebels were actually US forces.

Let me be quite clear what I would accept as “NATO forces” participating in offensive: a unit of active duty soldiers from the same NATO army, which was put together by said NATO army and sent to join AFU. Volunteer veterans slapdashed together into a unit upon arrival by the AFU military leadership does not count as NATO force.

This is important distinction, and I hope you are not purposefully trying to confuse people.

Let me be quite clear what I would accept as “NATO forces” participating in offensive: a unit of active duty soldiers from the same NATO army, which was put together by said NATO army and sent to join AFU. Volunteer veterans slapdashed together into a unit upon arrival by the AFU military leadership does not count as NATO force.

There is a plausible middle ground on this definition: something like the Flying Tigers, who were recruited from US forces to fly against Japan for the Republic of China Air Force as effectively (well-paid) mercenaries under the command of retired Army officer Claire Chennault. I have never found any evidence they were acknowledged to exist prior to the US entry into WWII (although their first combat missions only occurred some days later), but they were discharged and their travel papers declared them as mechanics or instructors. After US entry into the war, they were absorbed into the USAAF under the same commander. It would be difficult for me to describe them as anything other than "American forces, if covert."

Of course, I've seen no evidence that such an arrangement is happening today, and it seems that like the Soviet "instructors" and "test pilots" in Korea and Vietnam, it would probably be difficult to hide today.

The more probably middle ground is somebody like Blackwater expanding to a force over thousands and deploying. It's accepted to train troops, it's accepted to offer material aid, and it's legal but frowned upon for third nation citizens to join the army, but when you combine all three at once I think we'd see difficulty not seeing that as escalating.

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