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naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   30739 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 21, 2022

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mistake of trying to reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into

As a general statement this just isn't true. I imagine everyone here has 'reasoned themselves out of' dozens of positions they've adopted because they were social/political convention. There are of course a ton of specific cases where 'convincing people' doesn't work, but it greatly depends on broader context, how you approach and talk, etc. I mean - otherwise, how could societal change happen at all?

As a general statement this just isn't true.

No, I think he's right. And it's not that people never change their mind based on reason, it's just that these instances are dwarfed by the amount of times they change their mind based on peer pressure, media, and having opinions banned (or a combination of all of these).

I think it is true as a general statement. In the battle between the subconscious and reason, reason is going to lose every single time. At best you can reason someone into changing their behavior, but you can't reason them into changing their mind. I certainly wish it weren't true, because I view it as a great human failing. But I think it is true nonetheless.

The subconscious will win out initially if entrenched (if not, it's just "huh, I learned something"), but it will remember the counterargument and be weakened in its conviction. Repeat a few times and you can change the subconscious mind. Adjusting with new information is just how humans learn.

However, I do believe that "You can't reason someone out of an emotion they didn't reason themselves into" is mostly* true, and "Scared of X" is an emotional response. You can potentially reason someone out of a position that incites emotion, but the emotion itself will remain. If I'm worried, then I might be convinced nothing will go wrong, but I will still be worried.

This obviously becomes a problem when, like in OP's example, people make it about the emotions themselves.

  • It can be done and is called therapy, but it requires highly trained professionals, lots of time and effort, and the target's cooperation.

I think it is true as a general statement. In the battle between the subconscious and reason, reason is going to lose every single time.

Well that just intuitively sounds wrong to me. /s

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