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naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   30739 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 21, 2022

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Going to echo some other posters, and say it seems like you made the crucial mistake of trying to reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. I've had ample experience on this with my wife - who, as one might imagine, trusts me and cares a great deal about what I have to say. With that big of a handicap, I should be able to convince her to not worry about things, right? Wrong. She doesn't get mad, she knows I'm just trying to help, but ultimately my attempts at reason don't help her. What she actually wants/needs from me is "I'm sorry you had to deal with that, that really sucks".

Now that's just my wife, but my experience has taught me that the same is true of people generally. If they are irrationally afraid of something, it simply does not matter what you tell them to try to get through. They didn't reason themselves into those emotions, and reason won't get them out. Or, in the cynical case of "they are acting like victims to achieve status", then your reasoning doesn't address what they actually think. Either way, it doesn't work.

Nothing you can do to fight human nature, sadly. Just remember for next time that reason isn't going to work there.

I think you're right that a lot of this is about the emotional response. Without having seen the original conversation, I can easily believe that this is less about "I am specifically scared that there will be a mass shooting next time I am in a gay bar" and more about "I have feelings about the possibility that there are people out there who might hate me enough to kill me, in conjuction with the existence of other people who wouldn't kill me but still hate me." If you address the former in a way that invalidates the latter, then you're going to ruffle feathers.

It might help to deliberately try to phrase the calm-down in a way that actively validates the surrounding messy feelings. As in, "If you are specifically worried about being shot, then I think you can be reassured that the chances of this actually happening to you are very low. But of course I also understand that there are other reasons why you might have really strong feelings about this."

mistake of trying to reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into

As a general statement this just isn't true. I imagine everyone here has 'reasoned themselves out of' dozens of positions they've adopted because they were social/political convention. There are of course a ton of specific cases where 'convincing people' doesn't work, but it greatly depends on broader context, how you approach and talk, etc. I mean - otherwise, how could societal change happen at all?

As a general statement this just isn't true.

No, I think he's right. And it's not that people never change their mind based on reason, it's just that these instances are dwarfed by the amount of times they change their mind based on peer pressure, media, and having opinions banned (or a combination of all of these).

I think it is true as a general statement. In the battle between the subconscious and reason, reason is going to lose every single time. At best you can reason someone into changing their behavior, but you can't reason them into changing their mind. I certainly wish it weren't true, because I view it as a great human failing. But I think it is true nonetheless.

The subconscious will win out initially if entrenched (if not, it's just "huh, I learned something"), but it will remember the counterargument and be weakened in its conviction. Repeat a few times and you can change the subconscious mind. Adjusting with new information is just how humans learn.

However, I do believe that "You can't reason someone out of an emotion they didn't reason themselves into" is mostly* true, and "Scared of X" is an emotional response. You can potentially reason someone out of a position that incites emotion, but the emotion itself will remain. If I'm worried, then I might be convinced nothing will go wrong, but I will still be worried.

This obviously becomes a problem when, like in OP's example, people make it about the emotions themselves.

  • It can be done and is called therapy, but it requires highly trained professionals, lots of time and effort, and the target's cooperation.

I think it is true as a general statement. In the battle between the subconscious and reason, reason is going to lose every single time.

Well that just intuitively sounds wrong to me. /s

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