I'm surprised he didn't link to this which seems directly on point.
But even more on point, to a wine aficionado, saying you don't appreciate good wine is just like saying to me that you would sooner buy a Lay-z-Boy recliner than an Eames lounger. If you don't see the difference, you just aren't one of our sort, which is a small subset of people but it's one to which I belong. I recall an argument here before where an interlocutor (since departed) told me that he saw no difference between consuming LibsOfTikTok and reading Marx's Kapital, I remember thinking this is just such a disconnect there's no way to even explain it.
A more Motte-ish analogy to the different studies Scott cites here: take three authors, Scott Alexander, Stephanie Meyer, and Honoree Jeffers. Scott cites studies where mass consumers are given different wines, if you gave mass book consumers passages from the works of each of those three authors most would prefer Meyer. Scott cites studies in which experts were given wines, if you gave literary experts passages from each they'd pick Jeffers every time. Yet I'd pick Scott every time, and there's a subset of people who would pick Scott who I align with, and to call literary skill "fake" is an absurd (repugnant?) conclusion.
I'd argue that wine is no more fake than literature.
I think the question at the heart of Scott's essay is would the experts really choose the same "best" wine every time? Say you had 10 high quality wines, 9 worth $200 and 1 an acclaimed award winning $10k bottle. The wine experts would all be able to tell all the wines are good wines, that none are cheap trash, but would they actually be able to pick out the $10k bottle? Not even necessarily enjoy it more, the price of the 10k is for its uniqueness not its quality according to other commenters, but even identify it. If the answer is yes, then wine is not fake. If the answer is no, then wine is kinda fake.
I'm with you, and in fact this is the thread that finally got me to stop lurking on the new site and set up an account (under a different name, not that I posted a lot or was well-known on the sub beforehand).
I think what a lot of people here, Scott included, are missing is that wine is not just about the taste. In the same way that literature is not just about the plot. The style of the prose, which gives the book structure, usually matters much more than the story itself. And the background behind the work--the circumstances in which it was written, and when and where and why the author wrote it--also contribute to the importance of a work. Sum up Moby Dick in a sentence or two and it doesn't sound very interesting. But actually reading it is an entirely different experience.
Wine is basically the same way. The taste matters, of course. Nobody wants to drink a bad wine. But for a wine lover, it's just as important to explore WHY it tastes that way... what the winemaker chose to do, how that year's vintage compared to the year before, where the vineyards are, how the climate at the vineyards affects the growing conditions, whether the winery has been around for 30 years or 500.
Not everybody needs to care about these things... there's nothing wrong with buying an $8 wine, or a $30 or $70 big-brand wine without much character to it. There's nothing wrong with reading Dean Koontz or John Grisham or James Patterson novels either! But there's so much more depth out there, for those who are interested, and that transcends far beyond just the actual flavors in the wine.
It's not that the historical context doesn't matter. It's that wine experts pretend that their judgments about context are really judgments about the physical quality of the wine. The wine experts of the 70s claimed that their judgment of the superiority of French wine was founded on taste, not on pedigree or prestige.
But there's so much more depth out there, for those who are interested, and that transcends far beyond just the actual flavors in the wine.
But the actual flavors of the wine don't seem to matter that much at all. It would be like being a literary critic who could expound for hours about the literary trends of the 20th century, but who couldn't recognize the difference between David Foster Wallace and David Walliams. If wine connoisseurs wanted to bill themselves as simply historians and trivia masters, that would be one thing - but they don't, they're explicitly seeking to be judges of aesthetics (on the level of flavor).
here's nothing wrong with reading Dean Koontz or John Grisham or James Patterson novels either! But there's so much more depth out there, for those who are interested, and that transcends far beyond just the actual flavors in the wine.
But I don't have to know Tolkien wrote LOTR to make a new English legendarium in order to like it better than The Firm, Along Came a Spider, or B is for Burglar. In fact, I knew jack shit about LOTR when I first deeply enjoyed LOTR in the 90s.
But for a wine lover, it's just as important to explore WHY it tastes that way... what the winemaker chose to do, how that year's vintage compared to the year before, where the vineyards are, how the climate at the vineyards affects the growing conditions, whether the winery has been around for 30 years or 500.
I understand this, but said wine lover should able to do all this...with a blank bottle.
I think the background of the work is incapable of mattering - it cannot modify the experience of a blind sampler, and so it cannot reliably impact the experience of consumers in the future when the background or context may be lost or warped. Or even now when the seller can just lie about the background. The product is as good or bad as it is with zero context. Sure, you can use the context (assuming you trust it is accurate) to predict salient facts about it, but that is not the same as those facts being modified by or dependent upon the context.
The structure of a book is perceivable "blind" so it can easily be considered - it is part of the work. The vintage of some wine? No. The author is dead. Embrace that and don't fool yourself into disbelieving your own senses because of the prestige of the product. Does it have desirable quality A, or not?
If you don't like a passage of Shakespeare given to you unlabeled (and you didn't recognize it), then you ought not like it in the alternate setting where you're told the author. All else is pretentious hogwash.
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Notes -
I'm surprised he didn't link to this which seems directly on point.
But even more on point, to a wine aficionado, saying you don't appreciate good wine is just like saying to me that you would sooner buy a Lay-z-Boy recliner than an Eames lounger. If you don't see the difference, you just aren't one of our sort, which is a small subset of people but it's one to which I belong. I recall an argument here before where an interlocutor (since departed) told me that he saw no difference between consuming LibsOfTikTok and reading Marx's Kapital, I remember thinking this is just such a disconnect there's no way to even explain it.
A more Motte-ish analogy to the different studies Scott cites here: take three authors, Scott Alexander, Stephanie Meyer, and Honoree Jeffers. Scott cites studies where mass consumers are given different wines, if you gave mass book consumers passages from the works of each of those three authors most would prefer Meyer. Scott cites studies in which experts were given wines, if you gave literary experts passages from each they'd pick Jeffers every time. Yet I'd pick Scott every time, and there's a subset of people who would pick Scott who I align with, and to call literary skill "fake" is an absurd (repugnant?) conclusion.
I'd argue that wine is no more fake than literature.
I think the question at the heart of Scott's essay is would the experts really choose the same "best" wine every time? Say you had 10 high quality wines, 9 worth $200 and 1 an acclaimed award winning $10k bottle. The wine experts would all be able to tell all the wines are good wines, that none are cheap trash, but would they actually be able to pick out the $10k bottle? Not even necessarily enjoy it more, the price of the 10k is for its uniqueness not its quality according to other commenters, but even identify it. If the answer is yes, then wine is not fake. If the answer is no, then wine is kinda fake.
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I'm with you, and in fact this is the thread that finally got me to stop lurking on the new site and set up an account (under a different name, not that I posted a lot or was well-known on the sub beforehand).
I think what a lot of people here, Scott included, are missing is that wine is not just about the taste. In the same way that literature is not just about the plot. The style of the prose, which gives the book structure, usually matters much more than the story itself. And the background behind the work--the circumstances in which it was written, and when and where and why the author wrote it--also contribute to the importance of a work. Sum up Moby Dick in a sentence or two and it doesn't sound very interesting. But actually reading it is an entirely different experience.
Wine is basically the same way. The taste matters, of course. Nobody wants to drink a bad wine. But for a wine lover, it's just as important to explore WHY it tastes that way... what the winemaker chose to do, how that year's vintage compared to the year before, where the vineyards are, how the climate at the vineyards affects the growing conditions, whether the winery has been around for 30 years or 500.
Not everybody needs to care about these things... there's nothing wrong with buying an $8 wine, or a $30 or $70 big-brand wine without much character to it. There's nothing wrong with reading Dean Koontz or John Grisham or James Patterson novels either! But there's so much more depth out there, for those who are interested, and that transcends far beyond just the actual flavors in the wine.
It's not that the historical context doesn't matter. It's that wine experts pretend that their judgments about context are really judgments about the physical quality of the wine. The wine experts of the 70s claimed that their judgment of the superiority of French wine was founded on taste, not on pedigree or prestige.
But the actual flavors of the wine don't seem to matter that much at all. It would be like being a literary critic who could expound for hours about the literary trends of the 20th century, but who couldn't recognize the difference between David Foster Wallace and David Walliams. If wine connoisseurs wanted to bill themselves as simply historians and trivia masters, that would be one thing - but they don't, they're explicitly seeking to be judges of aesthetics (on the level of flavor).
More options
Context Copy link
But I don't have to know Tolkien wrote LOTR to make a new English legendarium in order to like it better than The Firm, Along Came a Spider, or B is for Burglar. In fact, I knew jack shit about LOTR when I first deeply enjoyed LOTR in the 90s.
I understand this, but said wine lover should able to do all this...with a blank bottle.
More options
Context Copy link
I think the background of the work is incapable of mattering - it cannot modify the experience of a blind sampler, and so it cannot reliably impact the experience of consumers in the future when the background or context may be lost or warped. Or even now when the seller can just lie about the background. The product is as good or bad as it is with zero context. Sure, you can use the context (assuming you trust it is accurate) to predict salient facts about it, but that is not the same as those facts being modified by or dependent upon the context.
The structure of a book is perceivable "blind" so it can easily be considered - it is part of the work. The vintage of some wine? No. The author is dead. Embrace that and don't fool yourself into disbelieving your own senses because of the prestige of the product. Does it have desirable quality A, or not?
If you don't like a passage of Shakespeare given to you unlabeled (and you didn't recognize it), then you ought not like it in the alternate setting where you're told the author. All else is pretentious hogwash.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
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More options
Context Copy link