site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 10, 2025

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Even ignoring cultural differences in what is considered 'faggy' or 'gay-looking', you are mostly talking about men who happen to otherwise be extremely conventionally attractive (including personality traits like confidence and gregariousness). I don't think that generalizes well to the larger group.

There is a certain fey demeanor in many of the young guys who join these bands, which one cannot directly relate to physical weakness--they go through extremely rigorous training or, in some cases, vetting because they've applied to an agency, to reach a level of dance skill that is deemed acceptable. I would, in most cases, disagree that many of these guys are what you are calling conventionally attractive (at least physically) unless you are including in that net the conventional attractiveness of the feminine.

I once grew my hair out long, because I was young and influenced by films at the time. My buddy used to look at me and say: "Never go to prison."

There's a prettyboy look to the boybands that is not masculine, and is decidedly, at least in my view, more feminine. And as I say, it's not just the make-up, it's their way of laughing (covering their mouths, a very female gesture in Japan), of moving as they walk with what is clearly an affected swagger that has more in common with actresses in Takarazuka who are pretending to be men than an actual man. There's a particular gesture of using one's hand to lightly brush away one's bangs or forelock from the eyes that I have noticed common in these guys, that is to me very marked as female (the guy gesture would be to run the hand through the hair straight back and clear the bangs, not wipe them with one hand very delicately, as if parting a bead curtain.)

As for gayness, there was a scandal a few years ago regarding one of the main companies that produces these bangs, alleging that the owner/mastermind--who had perhaps conveniently died four years earlier--had forced young boys into sexual acts with him. He obviously never faced any prison time or trial because he was dead, and to me at least this was less of a scandal than a revelation of an obvious process that had been covered up for years. The man who had arguably begun the boyband trend in Japan by manufacturing many such groups had been cultivating, if not the actual members of the groups (but maybe also those guys) but applicants, as his personal catamites.

To your point that these guys demonstrate gregariousness and confidence, I concede. At least in public or in publicized interviews they're pretty happy and, cough, gay. <-- Note that in this interview, with the group named "King & Prince" when there were several members (all but two have "retired") they are dressed in more traditionally masculine clothes than what you often see.

A final thought: Despite my distaste for these bands I've noticed almost all the guys have enviably really deep speaking voices.

What women find attractive in men /= what men think women find attractive in men.

To be sure. I'm simply expressing my own distaste, not projecting on women. Many times I've seen dudes way different than I am and suspected, "well he wouldn't be looking or acting like that if it weren't getting him laid somehow."

I was really thinking about more gender neutral signifiers of conventional attractiveness--eg, facial symmetry, straight teeth, etc--than specifically masculine or feminine ones. For example, consider the three stereotypically "gay-looking" burglars from Survive Style 5+. I don't think it is very controversial to say that the pretty boys you linked are more conventionally attractive than Yoshiyuki's character, even when judging by masculine standards. As for feminine mannerisms, I think some kinds of performative femininity in men should be considered masculine because it is puffery that signals confidence and fitness rather than signaling weakness or true vulnerability.