This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I struggle to understand the logic that Trump repeating Russian propaganda shouldn’t be taken seriously while Biden saying pretty much anything is a dog whistle for pedophilia. But struggle alas I shall.
With this one weird trick, you too can avoid ever having to make a substantive argument!
More options
Context Copy link
Look, I want to have different perspectives around and I upvote you a lot even if I don't always agree, because you get dogpiled. But this is a pretty bad post and is really just waging the culture war. If you can point to a specific person who claims "Trump repeating Russian propaganda shouldn't be taken seriously", in those exact words, I will eat my hat. What I see people actually claim is that Trump is not actually repeating Russian propaganda, and that the claims he is should not be taken seriously. By all means disagree with that take if you wish. But you can't just go "I think what Trump said is Russian propaganda that was fed to him" -> "people say it's not a big deal" -> "people think Trump repeating Russian propaganda isn't a big deal". When people don't agree with your starting premises, you can't judge their actions based on the logical conclusions of your premises.
It's certainly true that there are people who do blow off everything Trump does while howling about things that Biden did. We have plenty of those people posting here. But while it's hypocritical, I don't really think the logic of it is something that's a struggle to understand. Some people are just plain partisan, and will overlook even the most egregious things their side does while bitterly complaining about even the most minor offenses from the other side. But it's important to remember that both the left and right do this with equal frequency. It's not a good thing, but it's not like Trump supporters have some kind of monopoly on this behavior either. People are real good at worrying about the speck in their brother's eye while ignoring the beam in their own eye.
This is a glib summary of my point of view. Crucially Trump has repeated Russia's talking points that Ukraine 'started it', and that Zelenskyy's leadership is illegitimate. Particularly for the former I do not believe Trump arrives at that point of view as an impartial outsider. I don't believe it should be taken seriously because Trump has a habit of saying anything, and his view of conflict mediation is probably closer to breaking up a schoolyard scuffle than Clausewitz. If Russia is given sanctions relief to stop its economy from cratering I will concede I didn't take him seriously enough.
Welp, fair enough. I stand corrected on that point.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Well I appreciate the upvotes, but please, upvote if you agree with my post. I genuinely don’t give thought to my upvotes and downvotes, and I don’t mind the majority of responses disagreeing with me. If I’m going to stick my liberal hand in the very-not-liberal crocodile mouth, I can’t cry when it bites down.
I reread your first paragraph and I legitimately can’t understand what you’re trying to say. I know you think I’m waging the culture war, but I’m stumbling over your explanation in the end of your first paragraph to form a proper response. Could you reword it for me?
Also, we are sooooo not going to agree that the left and right are equally partisan and that Trump supporters don’t have a monopoly over the behavior.
What I'm saying is that your thought process seems to be something like this:
What I'm saying is that Trump supporters don't agree with point #1 to begin with, so reasoning as if they did is fatally flawed. I submit that what is actually happening in their minds is something like this:
I am not actually a Trump supporter, so I'm not claiming to perfectly represent their thoughts. Just trying to show how one might arrive at very different conclusions from you if they disagree with the idea that he is just repeating propaganda. And given that, it isn't necessarily hypocritical for them to be unbothered by Trump's behavior while vociferously criticizing Biden's behavior.
How is that not hypocritical to you?
How is it hypocritical? The hypothetical Trump supporter I've outlined has not violated any of his own principles. He is not criticizing Trump because he doesn't think anything wrong happened, and he is criticizing Biden on a separate issue where he does think something wrong happened. There's no hypocrisy in that. If hypothetical-Trump-supporter criticized Biden for supposedly repeating Russian propaganda while giving Trump a pass, that would be hypocritical. But it's not hypocritical to say "doing X is ok but doing Y is wrong", and to criticize people according to whether they have done X or Y.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
The hypothetical Trump supporters' chain of logic you give is notable for its implication that Russian propaganda is actually true, or at least could be arrived as the result of Trump's good reasons.
So the charge of hypocrisy is just shifted to whether or not they will openly acknowledge a fourth point:
Sure, that is fair. If someone thinks that what Trump says is ok, but denounces it as propaganda when not-Trump says it, that would certainly be hypocritical.
Yes though the more common case is they simply refuse to address the question of whether they are now Putin supporters, because it is too confusing.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link