site banner
PaperclipPerfector  7d ago (text post)   27741 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 13, 2025

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Jesus. In a 42 page document, beginning on page 7, men aren't mentioned till page 9:

We also combat discrimination and harmful gender norms that affect people of all genders: women and girls— including transgender women and girls—gender nonbinary and gender nonconforming people, as well as men and boys. (Emphasis mine)

In total, men are mentioned a grand total of 11 times in 42 pages, and with only two exceptions those instances reference men purely to illustrate the comparative plight of women.

42 pages. 11 mentions. 1 positive mention.

That 'positive' mention is the one I give above, where it's suggested that men need help to liberate them from their masculinity. The other mention is neutral, stating that the commission will work with men to, of course, help women.

I'd be less critical of it if it merely ignored men. Instead it often takes blatant evidence of discrimination against men and views it as discrimination against women. Eg, consider the section on education, which says of higher education:

While women have made substantial progress in rates of enrollment in postsecondary education and represent a majority of college students, they hold two-thirds of the nation’s student debt

"Women represent a majority of college students" here is hiding a large and growing gender gap in college education going back over 40 years at this point. Worse, pointing out women hold two-third's of the nation's student debt and implying it is discriminatory against women completely hides both that women are very nearly two-thirds of college students (so it is nearly proportionate) and hides the structural issues that disproportionately prevent men from accessing student loans, most prominently being men having to sign up for selective service in order to be eligible for (note this changed very recently, with men being automatically enrolled since so many weren't doing so voluntarily...) the government subsidized loans which make up over 90% of student loan debt. This is like claiming whites were being discriminated against because they held a disproportionate amount of outstanding mortgage debt at the height of redlining.

Page 4:

The single father who depends on paid leave to care for his family.

Well done! I used Ctrl+F for ‘men’, I should have tried some more synonyms.

How many times are transgender women mentioned?

Trans people (generally) twice, and trans women (specifically) three times. I could've missed some because it was a simple ctrl+F.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats