This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I continue thinking that to look at the life of rich celebrities and seek to derive any conclusions about what rules the rest of us ought to live by is foolish. Even if the data actually suggests that it was a mistake for people like him to not live by the Pence rule (and this hasn't been established - for every blob of drama like this, do we know how many happy celebrities have left happy groupies with A+-would-bang-again experiences that they will treasure for a lifetime?), the data says nothing at all about whether an open marriage can work for any of the instances that don't fit this pattern, where the man is not an idol seen as holding the keys to a magic world of glamour or de facto bottomless affluence, the women are not secretly competing for exclusive access to this resource and there is no hovering media machine that would involve the whole world in the conflict for the promise of eyeballs.
I'm of the understanding that David Bowie had one of these and got (largely posthumously) cancelled for it anyway (because underage).
More options
Context Copy link
Considering we already know the ones who regret it have massive incentive to say something now that they have a worldwide platform to get sympathy, and considering how many gay now-celebrities give glowing reviews of getting
rapedlaid in their early teens (to say nothing of Milo Y.), I expect the rate of satisfaction from these encounters to be in excess of the base rate of satisfaction per encounter for normal sexual relationships, which for reference averages around 69%.I think this but for people who make unconventional choices more generally.
Just because it works [or is within the bounds of acceptable risk] for them (for reasons you might not know, and maybe it isn't working) doesn't mean it will work for you (because you just want to stick it in the new hotness rather than your wife- she's not as hot any more, you see), and if you can't understand why it's working for them (because it's not done with the implicit or explicit intention of taking more than they put into the relationship/they're capable of dealing with the pitfalls) then it will hurt you if you do it (because that is why you are doing it).
(Which is the positive justification for censorship of infohazards like open marriages are; too bad the principal-agent problem is a thing, so you make the choice between ensuring the high-performance unconventional people have everything they need or blinding them so the less-able are less distracted by bad options they don't have the mental or social capacity to avoid. It's almost like the people in these relationships owe it to the less-able not to broadcast it to the ends of the Earth, and the less-able owe it to the more-able not to interfere; perhaps this comprises some sort of social contract?)
Now THIS is the sort of argument that keeps me coming back to The Motte.
Seriously. Asking about the base rate of 'satisfaction' with celebrity sex encounters is a 'fun' and relevant question.
I can't actually disagree with your estimate, either. I'd guess that the glow of having someone you idolize giving you the most intimate of attention and (one hopes) pleasure is a particular kind of ecstasy for the monkey brain. Like, imagine a teen boy who was fantasizing about, I dunno, young Christie Brinkley for his entire adolescence, then after he turns 18 he has a chance encounter with her where she gives him the thing he'd dreamt about and he has an incredible story to tell for the rest of his life. Hard to imagine the guy having any regrets.
But I also expect that the same idolization leads to expectations that necessarily exceed the reality of human capabilities, so there's likely to be some amount of disappointment upon realizing that well-maintained celeb is but a man and thus has finite stamina, makes awkward sounds and smells during sex, and may not administer amazing pillow talk. So the delta between expectations and reality is probably where some of the 'regret' can be found.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link