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naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   33194 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 10, 2022

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If, for reasons beyond their control, the price of their property increases, they can be financially forced from their homes,

Is the windfall from selling a house + expensive land gone under Georgism? If my land goes from being worth 200K to being worth $5M, I still get to pocket that $4.8M, right? I think so because the check from the buy er has to so somewhere, but maybe LVT breaks this in a way I cannot understand.

You still do, the big difference is you pay taxes on the 5 mil value until you sell.

It's also likely that land values would be somewhat lower especially in places where some of the current value comes from the disconnect between potential and actual value and being taxed on the current use.

If the land value is kept down by prospects of high taxes then the owner will pay tax on the low value, which will be managable.

You will be forced out of your home long before that, and all the gains will accrue to the condo developer whose political allies pushed you out (like Dag just explained below).

It's been happing where I live for years, and if "rationalists" want to join in it will mark the point where they became just another parasite class that rationalizes entirely in its self-interest.

Frankly advocating "georgism" is the "break out the guillotines" limit for me, because the victims are my people and the preparators are /r/neoliberal vampires. I know too many retired Microsoft types with two-digit employee numbers who do "land use advocacy" in rural areas to have any illusions about their goals for land ownership, and I'm not going to die a landless serf while they relax in their 2-acre billion-dollar mansions surrounded by a hundred acres of untaxed "nature reserves" that used to be our farms.

/r/neoliberal vampires

If I have to become a neoliberal in order to become a vampire, I may accept.

In all seriousness, yes losing your home to developers sounds terrible but it does promote valuable use of land. At the end of the day it depends on how you fundamentally view land and how it should be used.

From my point of view, having land simply reward whoever squatted there first with no view to their effort on the land is both unfair and a huge waste of potential value. If anything I would say the landowners who get a massive benefit from simply being lucky enough to live in a desirable area are the vampires, as they are sucking away monetary value from the surrounding area by doing essentially nothing.

House Vampire is the best house, and no, you don't have to be a neoliberal to join.

Pretty amazing how we went from "there's nothing coercive about land use reform" the other day to "the state will seize your land and give it to developers, die in a pod you filthy undeserving squatter"

Merited impossibility happens so fast these days (or is that the wrong name for it?).

I never claimed there was nothing coercive about it, all taxes are inherently coercive. Also, nobody is seizing anyone's land under a Georgist model.

The government is seizing everyone's land under a Georgist model. The present value of the ground rent (the part the government is taxing away) is the entire value of the land.

I think we're getting confused on terminology. In my view the government already owns all the land in a nation and they essentially rent it even to landowners. This is pretty confusing to talk about though.

Idk, I'll have to go back to the drawing board on some of the Georgist stuff. Getting a lot of good objections from this post.

I kind of like the LVT on economic grounds but every time I listen to the people who want it I feel a great need to go learn how to use a gun.

No, you wouldn't get to keep that 4.8M unless you improved the land yourself, for instance built out a house/new wing or something similar. And then you'd only keep the portion which you improved.

The whole idea is that the 'land value' which drives most real estate speculation is taxed away.

Okay, so where does the money go?

At the start of 1990 I pay $100K+$100K for land+house by writing a check for $200K to the current owner of land+house.

Land value goes up kind of slowly for the first 15 years (say it goes from $100K to $400K, around 10% a year). I pay LVT of $5000 at the start and $20,000 at the end.

Then it really takes off, going up 50% per year. By 2010 the land is just over $3,000,000, and I decide "fuck this" at the $150K tax bill and sell.

So I sell for $3000K+$250K at the start of 2010 and get a check for $3,250,000 from the guy I sold the land to.

I still get that check. Even retroactively applied against all the back taxes, I come out ahead.

... Unless I decide to keep on living on the the $3 million land for 20 years. But I am choosing to leave nearly $3 million on the table for doing that. Being able to keep on living in one place is nice but not $3 million nice.

Under LVT theoretically all property is basically worthless because its value is taxed away. It would be impossible for its value to grow that large, because the associated taxes would grow at the same rate, making its net value 0.

Even under the "government owns it and just leases it to you" model, land still is not worthless, the same way a landlord's building is not worthless to the people who live there.

It is basically worthless to them, if you assume the landlord is charging the maximum possible rent they are willing to pay.

IIRC, implementations of Georgism also include Land Transfer taxes to mitigate people earning that windfall.

So I sell for $3000K+$250K at the start of 2010 and get a check for $3,250,000 from the guy I sold the land to.

No, in with an LVT you would get that check, and everything but the $200K purchase price (adjusted for inflation) and the value of your improvements, would be taxed away. This number would be adjusted based on how much you've already paid in yearly taxes, depending on the system.

Does that make more sense?

That sounds like double-dipping and is very frightening.

EDIT How do you establish land value without private sales? This is always a big problem in pure global communism where you lose access to price signals.

Honestly I may not understand the LVT that well, don't take my argument as the LVT position. I'll have to read more about the nitty-gritty.

There would be private sales, they would simply be heavily taxed based on land value. The numbers would be public (or at least accessible to assessors.)

The Georgist LVT is 100%. Whatever the value is of that land, you're paying it to the government. So you should buy the $100K house + $100K land in 1990 from the previous owner for $100K. Over the course of the first year you pay whatever the value of holding a piece of $100K land is for a year in taxes. Same for each of the years after that, with the new value of the land. When you sell, you get the $250K for the appreciation of the house, but nothing for the land. Of course, most likely no one else wants a $250K house on land they can't afford to pay the taxes on, so in fact a developer takes it from you for a song or you abandon it to the government, and someone else who is going to fill the land with 400 square foot apartments develops it instead.

If the LVT was done honestly, in this scenario you should be paying $0 taxes on the land because its market value is $0. If the land isn't worth $0, a land value tax makes it worth $0 according to the market--nobody would want to buy land that's priced higher than $0, because they have to pay the sale price plus 100% of the value in taxes, which is a net loss.

(And actually, all land would have negative value. The land is valueless because all the value gets taken away in taxes, plus you have transaction costs.)

The usual way the Georgists put it is taxing 100% of the land rent. The market value of the land is indeed zero under this system, but the land rent is not zero.

I have a hard time, even after Googling it, figuring out what land rent could mean here that's not also zero. The land rent is supposed to be the amount of rent the property would generate. Since all the land rent is taxed away, the land owner should be indifferent to how much land rent anyone would actually pay, which would drive the land rent down to zero as well.

This is where 'highest and best' comes in; it's not the land rent actually charged by the landowner, it's the land rent that a user making the 'highest and best' use of the property would pay.

Trying to phrase my objection correctly:

A user making the highest and best use would always pay zero because the amount that this user would pay affects the amount of taxes that the landowner would pay, and the combination of these would lead to the user paying zero, the landowner making zero, and the taxes being zero.

In order for this to work, you need it to be something like "the amount that the user would be willing to pay if there was someone who would care about raising their price that high, even if there's nobody who'd care". That would be consistent, but I can't see how such a thing could possibly be computed.

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Of course, most likely no one else wants a $250K house on land they can't afford to pay the taxes on,

The hypothetical was that the land value was going way up. If no one wants to buy it then the value is not there.

They want the land, not the house.

I would think that in a lot of cases, the house would have negative value, since it would have to be demolished and cleared away in order to improve the land.

Correct, though in the case of a $5M piece of land, it's likely to be a fairly small negative value in the larger scheme of things.

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