site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   31397 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 30, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

3
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

A nice write up, but what’s with the dig against Clarence Thomas at the end? What’s so bad about him?

He’s a strong social conservative.

Ironically, Clarence Thomas grew up speaking Gullah and is likely more connected to old school black culture than anyone else in public life.

Clarence Thomas is a perfect argument against affirmative action. He presents one with a dilemma, which either way proves that affirmative action is bad.

Is Clarence Thomas a brilliant jurist?

-- Yes. Then one should take his arguments against affirmative action, which are cogent and well argued, seriously and realize that affirmative action is bad.

-- No. That's why affirmative action is bad, it leads to the appointment of mediocre minds like Clarence Thomas to important positions.

Yes. Then one should take his arguments against affirmative action, which are cogent and well argued, seriously and realize that affirmative action is bad.

This argument doesn't follow. Even if one assumes that Thomas is a brilliant jurist, and we take his arguments seriously, that does not mean we will necessarily agree with his arguments. Brilliant people can be wrong too.

Brilliant people can be wrong

This isn't compatible with the form of credentialism that people who support affirmative action mostly subscribe to. Diversity, equity and inclusion is a package deal with Trust The Experts. In practice if not in theory.

Which is why the attack isn't that he's wrong, but that he's corrupt.

Trust The Experts

'Trust the Experts' is usually said in relation to descriptive statements, not normative ones. So you should 'trust the experts' to work out whether and by how much affirmative actions improves minority economic outcomes/affects levels of competence in an organisation, but that doesn't imply any particular position on affirmative actions.

'Trust the Experts' is usually said in relation to descriptive statements

Nonsense. Whether vaccines or lockdowns are effective is a descriptive matter, and yet people who were making ethical objections to either on moral grounds were routinely admonished with this mantra, because in its rote scientism it smuggles in materialist utilitarian ethics under the guise of descriptive inquiry.

Science is about descriptive claims. The Science is a justification for normative ones.

In this case, as anyone who has seen the last half century, the benefits of affirmative action have never materialized and the sounds the Experts are making about why we should do it have not had anything to do with effectiveness for about as long as people stopped debating Thomas Sowell about it.

Yet the legitimacy of it is still grounded in this same elitism. AA has never worked, but DEI experts tell me that the best way to run my company is according to the latest principles of race Marxism draped in sociology's clothing.

Ah, that makes more sense. I initially thought you meant he was an affirmative action appointment and was therefore the most persuasive example against affirmative action because he sucked. I didn’t pick up on the fact that you were establishing a dilemma.

Edit: On rereading, I think if you didn’t intend the message to be “Clarence Thomas sucks,” you rather muddied the waters by mentioning his name immediately after saying, “Nowhere can a black person rise farther with less talent than by claiming to be a Republican.”

Should have clarified by linking to Candace Owens and Mark Robinson but I was lazy at that point.

Candace Owens yes, but wasn't Mark Robinson genuinely popular before it came out that he was regularly posting pro-Hitler comments on pornsites?

His genuine popularity seems like the problem in my mind. Republican orgs and voters get psyched to have a token black and don't check the details before promoting him past his competency.

Before the pornsites, he was already an off the wall candidate. Honestly, if somebody normal like Rubio had those comments come out no one would believe it anyway.

I think the grassroots liked the off the wall stuff before it was about Hitler and porn.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats