site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1mo ago (text post)   31294 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 30, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

3
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Aren’t you and @Folamh3 excluding the most common, most defensible objection? Would either of those accounts be dissatisfied with life in prison?

(Edit: @gattsuru pointed out that, yes, the Aurelius guy remained 100% partisan about life without parole. And in one of the other cases I cited, too! Mea culpa.)

You can see a similar conclusion in other cases. Clemency is portrayed as (specifically Christian) mercy and a chance to further reduce the false alarm rate. More cynically, it’s a way for governments to look responsive to public outcry without actually releasing a possible murderer.

The status of Oklahoma’s parole board is interesting. It looks like they’ve recommended clemency 5 times, always on grounds of inhumanity, and always on a 3-2 or 3-1 vote. But there’s no shortage of cases where they decline to recommend it. Clearly there are limits to any stonewalling. Regardless, Governor Stitt usually declines the recommendation.

Aren’t you and @Folamh3 excluding the most common, most defensible objection? Would either of those accounts be dissatisfied with life in prison?

I'm not sure I follow. I suspect that they would be dissatisfied, but I don't know that and I don't wish to mischaracterize them if I'm wrong.

Consider the response to a commuted death sentence in the same state:

“After prayerful consideration and reviewing materials presented by all sides of this case, I have determined to commute Julius Jones’ sentence to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole,” Stitt said in a news release.

A crowd of Jones’ supporters at the Oklahoma Capitol broke out into loud applause and cheers when the decision was announced shortly after noon Thursday, and more than 100 supporters who had gathered outside the prison in McAlester erupted in cheers.

These protestors had more skin in the game, more publicity and a better case for innocence, but they were still cheering for life without parole. I think that suggests a true distaste for killing.

In the absence of other remarks on those Twitter accounts, I’d assume they feel the same, and would be glad to accept commutation even though that admits guilt.

In the absence of other remarks on those Twitter accounts...

Uh:

Hopefully the LWOP ruling pushes you to PIC abolition. Death by imprisonment is still death. Anytime behind bars is gross inhumanity, trauma, and violence. Every additional hour Julius remains there is cruel. It all must go. Our urgency must remain.

Well, there you have it.

The most defensible objection to what?

To the death penalty.

I think most death penalty protestors are neither evil nor conspiratorial. They just really reject killing. That leads to protesting whether or not innocence is in question.

See my other comment. I don't think this explanation describes all anti-death penalty activists.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats